Rice Hughes carpenter and Mariner 1841

Post by **kwr** » 09 Jun 2011 11:38

Rice Hughes, carpenter, (died a mariner of cholera in Kent 1849) married to Elizabeth (April 1837 Farnwoth IGI) and with his toddler John, is living with his (assumed) siblings Robert, 20, Mariner, Hugh, Ind, 20, and Ann, 15, at Wellington Street Runcorn, Ches. in 1841. None born in the county. HO 107/95.20/5/4.
Robert became a master mariner - vessels 1861 "Crinoline" Irish Sea (Married), 1871 "Hilda" Torquay (widower). Robert's birth c 1819. In 1861 his nephew Hugh, son of the deceased Rice/ Reece is with him on the "Crinoline".
I can't find a further trace of Robert, Hugh or Ann, the siblings of Rice, but I need to find the marriage of any of the 3 to find their father. Nor can I find baptisms for a Rice (or variations), Robert, Hugh and Ann between c 1815 - 1825 in Liverpool to the same parents.
Please get your thinking caps on!

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Jun 2011 12:54

From www.lan-opc.org.uk

I think this could be related

Marriage: 22 Dec 1816 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Rice Hughes - 26 of this Parish
Margaret Williams - (X), 24 of this Parish
Witness: W. B. Guest; Wm. Wilkinson
Married by Banns by: Thomas Clowes

also this may be connected
Baptisms: 5 Jan 1856 All Souls, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Rice Hughes - son of David Rice Hughes & Catherine
Notes: [note half of page faded]

I wonder if Rice could be a corruption of Rhys or Rees

How old was Rice when he died in kent?

Who are the wirnesses at the marriage in 1837 and does the actual entry give any further clues?

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Jun 2011 13:12

The 1841 centry actually gives Rice, Robert, Hugh as not born in the county. All the rest are born in the county

Have you got this?
1851 census Runcorn Hill Beer House sign of the Tup Runcorn Cheshire
John Rogers H M 27 beer seeler bn Runcorn
Elizabeth wife 35 bn Chester
John 13, William 11, Hugh 6 Robert 4, Reece 2 all listed as wife's sons all born Runcorn
Mary Ann Dutton wife's mother bn Chester

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Jun 2011 13:42

This is Reese' marriage from www.lan-opc.org.uk

Marriage: 3 Apr 1837 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Reese Hughes - Bachelor of this Parish
Elizabeth Dutton - Spinster of this Parish
Witness: ? Ormson; Elizabeth Sanders; Jno. Barrow; James Fair, Jnr.; Ann Watson; Thos. Todhunter
Married by Banns by: "William Jeff, Minister"

Post by **Hilary** » 09 Jun 2011 13:45

Cheshire Record Office has a Wills Database online

They have listed
Rice Hughes master mariner administration 1851 and Robert Hughes Mariner will 1874 both are of Runcorn

They wmight be worth looking at partuclarly Robert's will as he was married in 1861 census and widowed in 1871. he may or may not have children but may not mention other family members or property.

Post by **simone** » 09 Jun 2011 17:48

Also on Lancs Opc site

to go with marraige Hilary found

Baptisms: 4 Feb 1821 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Hughes - Child of Rice Hughes & Margaret
Abode: Midghall St
Occupation: Joyner
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate

Baptisms: 4 Feb 1821 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ellen Hughes - Child of Rice Hughes & Margaret
Abode: Midghall St
Occupation: Joyner

also witness on a couple of marriages which may give clues in some way.

Marriage: 13 May 1834 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Alexander Burnsides - Mariner of This Parish
Mary Jones - Spinster of This Parish
Witness: Rice Hughes; Mary Ann Shimmins, (X)

Marriage: 26 Jan 1836 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Jones - Mariner Widower of Liverpool
Ann Williams - (X), Widow of Liverpool
Witness: Rice Hughes; Mary Jones, (X)

wonder if not your Rice could it be dad to your Rice:?

Simone x

Post by **kwr** » 09 Jun 2011 18:15

Thank you all for looking at this for me (I am not KWR but his wife - he said you were all wonderful.)
Rice was 33 when he died in North Aylesford in 1849 following a voyage to (presume) Black Sea - Russia and Bulgaria. I haven't seen it, but been told by a very distant cousin - so born about 1816.
Sibs called Robert, Hugh, Ann. 1st child called John, then William, Emma, Hugh, Robert, Reece. Should be a child of a John, Reese, Robert or Hugh. I assume originally name was Rhys, and family from Wales at some stage. Marriage witnesses 1837 no help at all, are they?
No line yet on a possible marriage for brother Robert, the Master Mariner?
Thanks so much for this. I'll climb all over your responses, now. I don't fancy Margaret for his mother, do you?
JR

Post by **kwr** » 09 Jun 2011 18:31

JR again
Rice Hughes witness to marriages, "Joyner". My Rees was a carpenter 1841.

Post by **simone** » 09 Jun 2011 19:17

Education Officer wrote:This is Reese' marriage from www.lan-opc.org.uk

Marriage: 3 Apr 1837 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Reese Hughes - Bachelor of this Parish
Elizabeth Dutton - Spinster of this Parish
Witness: ? Ormson; Elizabeth Sanders; Jno. Barrow; James Fair, Jnr.; Ann Watson; Thos. Todhunter
Married by Banns by: "William Jeff, Minister"

Blimey confusing or what

I was checking for son Hugh through the census and found one in 1851 age 6 living as nephew to the Ormson family (Ormson witness at marriage

) , but your Hugh son of Reece is with his mother and step father, Rogers, in 1851 isn't he

here is the one I found in 1851
HO107; Piece: 2164; Folio: 467; Page: 17
Joseph Ormison 63 b Little Leigh
Catharine Ormison 58 b Runcorn
Hugh Hughes 6 nephew b Runcorn

Decided to look at the Ormsons further (Joseph and Catherine nee Evans married 1822 Runcorn), and find in 1841 at Runcorn that they have a Hugh Hughes living next door a Sawyer, age 60, not born in county

could he be connected

he has a wife Margaret with him age 60 also not born in county.
HO107; Piece 95; Book: 18; District: 5; Folio: 5; Page: 5; Line: 23;

got to be some connection surely.. maybe the other Hugh Hughes age 6 is a child of one of Rice's siblings

I need to go and have a cold shower... wake me up for a rethink

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 09 Jun 2011 19:42

from Lancs OPC

could these be Hugh and Margaret

Marriage: 19 Aug 1799 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Hugh Hughes - Sawyer of Liverpool
Margaret Williams - (X), Spinster of Liverpool
Witness: Edward Coventry; Hugh Hughes
Married by Banns by: Ls. Pughe, Curate

Marriage: 19 Oct 1801 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Hugh Hughes - Joiner of Liverpool
Margaret Kendrick - Spinster of Liverpool
Witness: Edward Coventry; Thos. Howard
Married by Banns by: George Monk, Curate

Either 2 separate marriages or has Hugh married twice

Post by **simone** » 09 Jun 2011 20:26

must be separate marraiges because children to Hugh Hughes and Margaret Williams after 1801 on Lancs OPC
Jane 1800
John 1802
Thomas 1805
John 1807
Catherine & Margaret 1810
Robert 1811

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 09 Jun 2011 20:58

IGI

Hugh Hughes bapt 29 Dec 1844 at Runcorn. extracted record
parents Reece Hughes and Elizabeth

also on same batch no

John Rigby Hughes son of Robert Price Hughes and Ann Elizabeth, baptism
12 May 1844

I think they are living with Rigby in laws in 1851 at Mersey Street, Runcorn
Robert is a Ship Broker?
HO107; Piece: 2164; Folio: 405 transcribed as Robert S Price

no sign of baby John.. so maybe he has died.

Robert and Ann married at St John, Liverpool Sep q 1842

may be worth a look up to see if any connection to Reece/Rice

their daughter Annie Louise Hughesb c 1848 is staying with her grandfather John Rigby back in Liverpool in 1861..RG9; Piece: 2597; Folio: 76; Page: 9

no sign of mum and dad...there is an Ann Hughes married, Mariner's wife...but husband absent. at Bostock Street Liverpool in 1861, RG9; Piece: 2651; Folio: 112; Page: 51...could Robert be the one aboard ship in 1861 with young Hugh

only thing is this Ann says born Liverpool not Cheshire

Sorry no idea if any of this will fit obviously... just a few ideas to look at

hope I'm not wasting your time

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 10 Jun 2011 08:33

Just fouynd John Rigby Hughes in a boarding and day school in 1851 at Runcorn

HO107; Piece: 2164; Folio: 455; Page: 52

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jun 2011 08:52

You must go to sleep thinking of these problems and wake up with them still on your mind.

Post by **simone** » 10 Jun 2011 09:17

Yep Mary

not so convinced about theses findings though.. such common names

a look through the Runcorn parish registers where Hugh was baptised might unearth something in baptisms or marriages though

still curious about the couple next door to the Ormson's.. such a coincidence

off out now.. replenish the greay cells for a bit

Simone x

Post by **kwr** » 10 Jun 2011 09:41

Thanks again to you all and now Simone as well for not giving up. I go to sleep thinking about a mystery, wake up in the night thinking about it and wake up in the morning still thinking about it.It's often when I wonder if my "own propaganda" is right, or leading me astray, and it's time to break out and start again.
I'll follow up the suggestions where I can, Can anyone look at the actual or facsimile of the 1837 Farnworth marriage to try to work out the Ormison first name?
Does anyone know if Edward Coventry, 2 x witness at Hugh Hughes' marriages 1799 and 1801 at St Nich is a "professional" witness?

Does anyone know of a lot as good as you lot who crawl all over Marylebone West London to help me find my not born, not baptised great grandfather? I've been after him for 10 years!
Thank you again.
JR

Post by **Hilary** » 10 Jun 2011 09:59

I can see you'll be taking a trip over here in the not too distant future!

Runcorn library has copies of Farnworth and Runcorn registers. I reckon sometime perusing them could be beneficial.

To find out if Edward Coventry is a professional witness you could go backwards and forwards on the entries on lan-opc and see if he occurs frequently.

Have fun!

Post by **simone** » 10 Jun 2011 11:42

hi

just keyed in Edward Coventry in witness name box on lancs opc

he only witnessed a mere 3033 marriages

joseph ormison has witnessed one other

Marriage: 30 Mar 1847 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Henry Hill - (X), of full age Waterman widower of Widnes
Mary Moss - (X), of full age widow of Widnes
Groom's Father: John Hill, Waterman
Bride's Father: John Moss, Stone mason
Witness: Joseph Ormison; Ann Percival, (X)
Married by Banns by: Frederic Walker - Curate
Register: Marriages 1845 - 1850, Page 87, Entry 173
Source: LDS Film 1655236 item 3

Post by **kwr** » 10 Jun 2011 12:03

Witnesses at marriage of Reese Hughes and Elizabeth Dutton were all professional except ?Ormson and Elizabeth Sanders. They seemed to use the whole vestry every time!
Still hunting. Will and Admin ordered.
JR

Post by **simone** » 10 Jun 2011 13:33

Hi

Marriage at Frodsham Mar q 1866 Hugh Hughes to Ellen Ravenscroft.

I reckon this is either your Hugh or the one with Jospeh Ormson/Ormison age 6.

Hugh husband of Ellen is a waterman in 1901, which was Joseph's occupation, so maybe that's how he knew the job so to speak. They are in Runcorn. Have a daughter Fanny age 15
RG13; Piece: 3335; Folio: 69; Page: 21

also in 1901
hugh hughes b Runcorn c 1845 aboard ship,, Dockhead
RG13; Piece: 3382; Folio: 165; Page: .

1891 RG12; Piece: 2906; Folio 154; Page 3
Hugh Hughes patient in hospital, mariner

where is Ellen in 1891

However on earlier census in 1871 Hugh with Ellen has a son Robert age 4 and is a mariner.
RG10; Piece: 3691; Folio: 159; Page: 31

can't find any of the family in 1881.

so which is which Hugh

one must be your Hugh surely.. and one the nephew of Joseph Ormson.. both have been mariner's by the looks of it

and where are they all in 1881

let us know what you find from the other things you have ordered

Simone x