Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

A shot in the dark here, but I'm trying to find out if anybody's had cause during the research of their family history to discover the Jones family of number 40 Worcester Rd, Bootle, circa 1911.

About 1911/12 the family is as follows:

Joseph Jones (Head)

Amelia Jones (Wife)

Glyn Jones (Son)

Sarah Williams (Mother)

The relations aren't as simple as it seems. Joseph and Amelia have a son of 13 years old, yet the census shows them only having been married 1 year. Therefore, it would appear that Amelia is a later wife.

Sarah Williams turns out to be the Mother of Amelia - not Joseph - and here's where the interest lies in it for me.

Sarah Williams is actually the adoptive Mother of my Gt Grandmother with Ameila being the adoptive sister of my Gt Grandmother. I am currently researching information about my Gt Grandmother who unfortunately, does not appear on the 1911 census, nor appears to have a birth certificate (believe me, I've been deep down that road) so my latest attempt at straw-clutching is the hope that somebody has had cause to research the Jones family of 40 Worcester Rd, Bootle. I know it's doubtful, but I've got to give it a go.

Hi
Is this this the family you are looking for in 1901

RG Piece Folio Page
RG13 3471 37 14

The Wife was Hannah 1868

Living at 5 Iris Street Kirkdale

Possible marriage for Joseph Jones to Hannah Thomas 1893 Q4 llb 543
St Asaph Denbighshire

Good luck

yappie

Hi there, welcome aboard
There's a marriage in Holywell Flint sept qtr 1909
Joseph Jones, one of the spouses listed is Amelia Williams.
Free BMD

Tina

Hi,
Not directly connected to Sarah but this is probably why Joseph married Amelia....
Following on from Tina's marriage find...
Deaths Jun 1908: JONES, Hannah - 40 - W. Derby - 8b - 234.

And then on to Sarah, this looks like young Amelia in 1881:
WILLIAMS, William - Head - Married - 40 - 1841 - Farmer Of 40 Acres Employing 1 Man - Caerwys, Flintshire, Wales.
WILLIAMS, Sarah - Wife - 39 - 1842 - Farmer's Wife - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Grace Ann - Dtr - u/m - 17 - 1864 - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Thomas - Son - 13 - 1868 - Scholar - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Elizabeth - Dtr - 8 - 1873 - Scholar - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Amelia - Dtr - 2 - 1879 - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Edward - Uncle - u/m - 68 - 1813 - Farm Labourer - Caerwys, Flintshire.
Address: Ty Isa Farm, Caerwys, Flintshire.
RG11 / Piece:5500 / Folio:27 / Page:29.

And 1891:
WILLIAMS, William - Head - Married - 49 - 1842 - Farmer - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Sarah - Wife - 50 - 1841 - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Thomas - Son - Single - 22 - 1869 - Farmers Son - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Elizabeth - Dtr - u/m - 17 - 1874 - Farmers Daughter - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Amelia - Dtr - 12 - 1879 - Scholar - Caerwys, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Margaret - Dtr-in-law - Married - 25 - 1866 - Tremeirchion, Flintshire.
WILLIAMS, Sarah M - G.dtr - 1 - 1890 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
WILLIAMS, William E - G.son - 0 (2M) - 1891 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
DAVIES, Martha - Adopted Dtr - 6 - 1885 - Scholar - Ysceifiog, Flintshire.
ROBERTS, Thomas - Servant - u/m - 39 - 1852 - Farm Servant - Caerwys, Flintshire.
Address: Ty Isa, Penycefn Road, Caerwys, Flintshire.
RG12 / Piece:4603 / Folio:30 / Page:11.

Dickiesam

Edited to remove incorrect census information regarding Amelia in the 1901. See later post for correct data.

PS: Out of general interest, for the non-Welsh speakers...
Ty Isa means Upper [or higher] house. Lower would be Ucha. Fairly common words often describing a village or holding divided by a natural feature into two parts, upper and lower. My better half was born in Corris Ucha(f).

Thanks D.S for explanation, always learning and also for finding death of Hannah.
Good census finds.
Amelia is 2 so adopted as a baby? And the adopted sister is Elizabeth?
Cheers
Tina

Tina wrote:Thanks D.S for explanation, always learning and also for finding death of Hannah.
Good census finds.
Amelia is 2 so adopted as a baby? And the adopted sister is Elizabeth?
Cheers
Tina

Hi Tina,
Don't know about an 'adoption' for Amelia... This is the only Flintshire birth 1877 to 1880:
Name: WILLIAMS, Amelia
Registration District: Holywell; County: Flintshire.
Year of Registration: 1879; Quarter: Jun.
Volume No: 11B; Page No: 249.

There's a choice of several Elizabeth births [1872 - 1874] but this is the only 1873 without a second forename:
Name: WILLIAMS, Elizabeth
Registration District: Holywell; County: Flintshire.
Year of Registration: 1873; Quarter: Mar.
Volume No: 11B; Page No: 294.

The Martha Davies, the 'adopted daughter' in the 1891 is still with the Williams family in 1901. Amelia is there as well.
RG13 / Piece:5207 / Folio: 20 / Page:18.


DS

Hi D.S
Perhaps I misunderstood the original post.
I thought Amelia and another sister were adopted by Sarah
Thanks for reply me dear

Tina

Tina wrote:Hi D.S
Perhaps I misunderstood the original post.
I thought Amelia and another sister were adopted by Sarah
Thanks for reply me dear

Tina

Hi Tina,
I was puzzled as well because it read as though Amelia may have been adopted, but then I found the birth and while Martha Davies is named as an 'adopted dtr' in 1891 and 1901, Amelia is a 'dtr' in the those two and in the 1881.

DS

First of all, many, many thanks to all who have replied to this topic and my apologies for not visiting sooner (busy week).

Obviously, it appears people on here are a plucky lot when it comes to detective work and have come up with the same information I have when tracing back. To set 'the field' straight, I'll explain my interest in all this as briefly and succinctly as possible.

My overall aim in this family history mystery (as it is) is to find out as much as possible about my Gt Grandmother, Martha Davies, who does not appear to have a birth certificate. Indeed, dickiesam has done the same census research I have done and found out that Martha Davies was adopted by the Williams family of Ty Isa farm. I've even contacted the present owners of the farm to find out history of the place in my vague attempt to find more information, but that's another story....

As far as I'm concerned, the only adopted child the Williams' had was my Gt Grandmother, Martha, whose time-line is as follows:

Born: 1884. The census' differ on this, but I have seen Martha's entry in the Birkenhead Union workhouse in 1910 stating 1884 as her year of birth and her school entry record of 1890 stating a full DOB. That's enough corroborative evidence for me to suggest that the census takers didn't quite get it right.

First census entry: 1891, adopted daughter of the Williams family of Ty Isa farm, Caerwys. However, the school entry of 24 July 1890 shows that William Williams had already taken her into his care as he was stated as her guardian.

Second census entry: 1901, still at Ty Isa Farm.

Third census entry: 1911 - NOTHING. I know for a fact, she is an unmarried Mother in Birkenhead Union Workhouse, having not long given birth to my Granddad. She's not in the entry for the Workhouse and neither is my Granddad. Workhouse records show she is discharged after the census was carried out, so either she's hiding somewhere in the building or is conveniently 'out'. But out where? Because, she, nor my Granddad, William Davies, turn up on the 1911 census ANYWHERE in the country! Yes, I've been through it and seen possibilities, but I can't tie any Martha Davies' or William Davies' on the 1911 census together. Nothing fits, so maybe she was too ashamed or a protesting suffragette? I really, really, really need the 1921 census ASAP!

Birth origins: As the census' suggests, she is born in Ysceifiog. Her school entry records her DOB as 19 August 1884. I've written to registrars in all the North Wales areas and they can't find a birth certificate for her. I've even tried a search with the national records office and they can't match a birth cert to that name and date.

Other avenues of research:

North Wales workhouse records for 1884: No inmates born in her name.

Wesleyan records: why this? She states her religion as 'Wesleyan' in her Workhouse entry of 1910 and my Granddad is baptised as Wesleyan in the Workhouse chapel. There was a 'Fron' chapel in Ysceifiog, but the Wesleyan archives don't hold any records from this. Other Wesleyan circuit registers are held at the national library of Wales, but the toilet roll list I've been through have nothing covering the area or year I'm interested in. Besides which, access to these records are pretty restricted and you have to jump through hoops and get special permission to view or have any access to them.

Other baptisms: I've also tried baptism records for St Mary's church in Ysceifiog, just in case a move to the Wesleyan movement came after she had been baptised under the conventional church, but nothing there either.

Family memories: Unfortunately, the only living people who remember Martha are my aunt and uncle. My uncle remembers nothing bar one visit during the 1940's and my aunt remembers only one visit, circa 1945/6. There are no recollections about her death and I have looked at death entries in an attempt at finding evidence of her at least leaving this world! But death certs are clutching at straws anyway.

So, that's why I've ended up on the Liverpool Genealogy forum. Simply because, in 1911, Martha's adoptive Mother, Sarah Williams, is living at 40 Worcester Rd with her son-in-law as head of the household. Ty Isa Farm has gone and her husband William, is deceased. How do I know that Sarah Williams and Amelia Jones are the people connected with Martha Davies? Martha's 1910 Workhouse entry record states her Mother & Father as William Williams, Farmer, deceased, Sarah Williams (Mother) living at 40 Worcester St, Bootle. Again, we have mistake in the entry as Worcester St doesn't exist, but Worcester Rd does. And who do we have at 40 Worcester Rd in 1911? Sarah Williams and one of her daughters, Amelia.

So, my hope was, somebody on the forum has had cause to research their family history and has found a relation in Joseph Jones and his wife Amelia. Clutching at straws again, but I'm at a brick wall in trying to find out exactly where the heck Martha Davies came from and why the Williams' took her on. Maybe she was a relation of the Williams' somehow, I don't know, but a birth certificate of some sort or a baptism record would be a start.

Hopefully that will make things a bit clearer - or murkier!

Hi Drumdoctor,
Thank you for the background to the quest!

I don't know exactly where Ty Isaf was in Caerwys, but the village is less than 2 miles from Ysceifiog where it is said Martha is from; so very local.

Both Caerwys and Ysceifiog come under Holywell for registrations and there are only 2 MD births between 1882 and 1886 registered in Holywell.
Births Jun 1883: DAVIES, Martha - Holywell - 11b - 261.
Births Mar 1886: DAVIES, Martha Ann - Holywell - 11b - 224.

Have you checked both of these? Because there is no mention of Ann in any census it doesn't rule out the 1886 birth and we are always wary of the accuracy of the given ages on censuses from which the YoB is calculated. It wasn't down to the enumerator to confirm an age. He/she only collected the completed Household Forms and compiled the Summary Census Pages as we see them up to 1901. The transcription does the YoB calculation.

With regard to the absence of Martha and William from the 1911, you should try searching for them as Davis. With my gypsy headscarf on and my crystal ball and the Schweppes [inside joke!]... He's with his mum. Try a search for William Davis, bn Cheshire, 1911 [exact], residing Birkenhead, search county Cheshire.

Dickiesam

You've certainly done a lot of research, nobody can accuse you of resting on your laurels

I really, really, really need the 1921 census ASAP!

Sorry to tell you that you aren't going to get that in the near future, you are going to have another ten years to wait and just don't put all your money on it, from our experience even the latest 1911 census that we had hoped would answer all our questions, has sometimes been sadly lacking.

Unless you have already done so I would suggest that you upload a small tree on every genealogy site that allows you to do so - Ancestry, Genesreunited etc. and make sure you use a current email address that won't close down if you change your isp - ie a hotmail or gmail address you can keep more or less for ever, then if you get replies they are hopefully going to get through to you.

Good for DS, perhaps he's cracked it with that Davis!

dickiesam wrote:Hi Drumdoctor,

With regard to the absence of Martha and William from the 1911, you should try searching for them as Davis. With my gypsy headscarf on and my crystal ball and the Schweppes [inside joke!]... He's with his mum. Try a search for William Davis, bn Cheshire, 1911 [exact], residing Birkenhead, search county Cheshire.

Dickiesam

Just picking my smashed bottom jaw up from the floor after I read the incorrectly recorded surname on the 1911 census. It was so obvious...In fact, I'd already been on the page for the workhouse on the Find My Past site and did a word search on Martha for the web page, and the same for Davies. Martha didn't turn up because they've spelt it 'DAVIS, Matrha' - wrong on both counts. I'll have to get this corrected.

dickiesam wrote:Hi Drumdoctor,

Both Caerwys and Ysceifiog come under Holywell for registrations and there are only 2 MD births between 1882 and 1886 registered in Holywell.
Births Jun 1883: DAVIES, Martha - Holywell - 11b - 261.
Births Mar 1886: DAVIES, Martha Ann - Holywell - 11b - 224.

Have you checked both of these? Because there is no mention of Ann in any census it doesn't rule out the 1886 birth and we are always wary of the accuracy of the given ages on censuses from which the YoB is calculated. It wasn't down to the enumerator to confirm an age. He/she only collected the completed Household Forms and compiled the Summary Census Pages as we see them up to 1901. The transcription does the YoB calculation.

Dickiesam

I noted the census taker gives Denbigh Afonwen as Martha's birth place so I'm now wondering if I should be looking for a 'Davis' rather than a 'Davies' in the birth records. Having said that, there's no 'Davis' for the period in the Welsh BMD

I did research both of the names you quoted above and if I remember rightly, I found what I believed to be both on the 1891 census. I will of course look over the census' again in case I've missed something, but I guess the only way of finding out anything for sure is by ordering the certificates. Having said that, I have written to 4 registrars offices covering the North Wales area asking for a Martha Davies born in August 1884 and they only came back with one which was 7 days out on my birth date in the Talyllyn district covered by the Dolgellau office. It's too far south for Flintshire/Denbigh though, if all the written evidence is pointing to a birth in the FLintshire area. The Martha Davies' born in 1884 registered at Llandudno & Wrexham offices weren't born in August as I wrote and asked so I didn't blindly blow my cash on wasted certificates.

As for that 1911 census, the fact that I missed 'Davis' in the 1911 transcription is testament to my lack of experience in the family history field.

Thanks for your help, it's at least closed the gap for 1911 which is a MASSIVE help as I had all kinds of ideas that she was a suffragette in hiding!

MaryA wrote:You've certainly done a lot of research, nobody can accuse you of resting on your laurels

I really, really, really need the 1921 census ASAP!

Sorry to tell you that you aren't going to get that in the near future, you are going to have another ten years to wait and just don't put all your money on it, from our experience even the latest 1911 census that we had hoped would answer all our questions, has sometimes been sadly lacking.

Unless you have already done so I would suggest that you upload a small tree on every genealogy site that allows you to do so - Ancestry, Genesreunited etc. and make sure you use a current email address that won't close down if you change your isp - ie a hotmail or gmail address you can keep more or less for ever, then if you get replies they are hopefully going to get through to you.

Good for DS, perhaps he's cracked it with that Davis!

Oh yes, DS cracked 1911 alright!

I have uploaded trees onto Genes reunited & Ancestry and had a few enquiries, but nothing matching. Still, I'm off to search the BMD Wales again, just to make sure I haven't missed something...