Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am trying to find a Birth Certificate for James Meehan. I believe he was born in 1890, but it could possibly be 1889. He is my maternal grandfather. He died when my mother was 3 years old. He died at the Luneside Hospital in Lancaster, but was living in Longton and working as a journeyman tailor at the time.

I have found him in the 1911 census at the Brothers of Charity institution in Preston. I believe i have also found him in the 1901 census living with his Uncle Patrick Meehan in Kirkdale, Liverpool on Lamb Street.

I have a copy of his Death Certificate in 1925 and his Marriage Certificate to Mary Knowles in 1919. The Marriage Certificate shows his father was John Meehan,(occ. Stevedore) and deceased in 1919. His Uncle Patrick was also a Stevedore.

I will be travelling to the UK in May and plan to visit Liverpool to search records. Can someone point me to the locations that give me the best chance of finding his birth certificate?

Greg Riedel
San Antonio, Texas USA

Hi Greg,

There is a James Patrick Meehan born West Derby in the March quarter of 1890 (Vol 8b page 282) on Free BMD.

There is also a James Meehan born in Liverpool in the December Quarter of 1889 (Vol 8b Page 64)

The only James Meehan on Free BMD born in 1899 was born in Todmorden.

If you haven't already got the Web Site address for Free BMD it is: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

I hope this is of some help to you, I'm sure the good people on this site will help you all they can.

Good luck and regards,

Roy Montrose

Hi Greg
Welcome to the forum from downunder
We need to find him in census with father John.
And to find a baptism.
You can't look up birth certificates, they have to be ordered.

Tina

1891 I've only found Uncle Patrick so far
29 Foreman Stevedore bn Liverpool (I would have bet my mortgage he came from Ireland )
27 Flinders St Kirkdale
wife Jane 29 Bn Ire
Mary 8 bn Lpool

Tina

added
1901 Uncle P is 42 bn Lpool
along with James nephew there is
Patrick Meehan 10 (poss birth rego as Meeham Lpl jun 1891) nephew & Mary 4 niece.

www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk show the following possible christenings all to a couple John Meehan and Ann Flanery?Flannery

1889 St Brigid James

1891 St Brigid Patrick

1893 Our Lady of Reconciliation Mary Ann

1894 St Augustine Elizabeth

These christenings seem to me to tie in with the children found in 1901

The same site shows John Meehan married Ann Flannery in 1889 at St Brigid

Good one Hilary, well done mate.

Tina

added later
2 deaths for John before kiddies were with the Uncle Pat
Tox Park 1899 34yrs
Lpool 1900 27yrs.

Nothing in the time frame/age for Ann

Hi

just a quick question are you sure he married Mary Knowles.. do you have your mums birth cert with Mary Knowles name on it..
Forgive me if you do, but have to be sure...

Its with you saying he was an Apprentice Tailor you see.. as there is another James Meehan in Liverpool around 1911ish born 1890 whos occupation was a Dresser Tailor his father was also called John he was a Tailor Maker.. mother named Mary and lots of siblings.
They resided in the Everton area..all born in Liverpool except dad John he was Irish.


xx

Thanks to all for the help. I did not include all details in my first posting.

I had found both James Meehans in the 1901 census. It has given me cause to question which James is correct. Although it makes sense that His father John might have been a tailor, James' Marriage certificate clearly states his occupation as Stevedore.

To Collette: Yes, I have James and Mary Knowles Marriage certificate and my mother's birth certificate. The Knowles side of my mother's family is well documented. I will be visiting with some of them in May.

To Tina: Unfortunately, neither of these death recordings seem to line up according to age (but it is possible).

I am beginning to suspect James may have moved to Preston and "borrowed" the identity of the other James Meehan (tailor) in Liverpool...The one whose father John was also a tailor. It is just too coincidental that they were the same age and both in Liverpool. Were records kept for the training received through the apprentice system? Were they kept by the individual guilds?

It might have been that my James picked up the trade while at the Brothers of Charity Inst. ( Preston) where he is listed on the 1911 census. If both fathers (Johns) were deceased from whom would a prospective employer confirmed proper training?

Thank you Ed. Officer for the information on the christenings. Should I visit St. Brigid for copies or is there a central repository for this information?

I would suggest that you obtain the baptism certificate, and see what address is given on them, with two baptisms and the marriage all in St Brigids, Bevington Hill, the addresses would be useful for searching the 1891 census. Hopefully the father's occupation will be confirmed on the marriage cert anyway.

Use the information given by Hilary above, the cost is only £3 or four entries for £10 from the site that she gave the link for. You could get all three baptisms plus the marriage certificate for the price of one from the GRO. The accept Paypal for payment, which is a good method from outside the UK.

What is his occupation in 1911? By then he was 21 and if he had been apprenticed to a tailor this would have taken place aroundthe age or 14/15 so I would expect there to be reference to this in 1911

What is his occupation at marriage? Is he a tailor then? Where did he marry?

If he is not a tailor at marriage I would query the death certificate
Who registered the death is he stated to be the husband of Mary etc?

Sorry for the questions but I feel there is something not quite right here.

Incidentally the other James appears to the James Patrick christened 1890 at St Francis Xavier son of John meehan and Mary Daly

This is where the story gets a little muddy. On the 1901 Census page where he is residing at the Brothers of Charity in Preston, James is listed as a "Working Boy". The younger boys listed below on the same page are described as Tailors apprentices. I have been in contact with the Brothers of Charity, now located in Chorley, but they were not inclined to assist in my search.

On the Marriage Certificate (to Mary Knowles) in 1919, James is listed as a Journeyman Tailor. At the time of the marriage, James was living in Longton on Liverpool Road. We know, for a fact, that he was working at the Sutton Tailor shop on Liverpool Road until his death in 1925.

This same Marriage Certificate states his father, John, was a Stevedore and was deceased at the time of the marriage.

I should state to all that I knew my Grandmother, Mary (Molly) Knowles. The Marriage Certificate and Death Certificate are to be taken as fact. Three children resulted from this marriage and two are still alive. My Uncle Jack Meehan lives in Southport and I will be visiting him in May.

I agree that something is not quite right, but it focuses around James' training as a tailor. If the connection to John and Ann Meehan proves to be correct, then predecessors going back 3 generations to Ireland were also Stevedores (dock workers). I know history has shown that occupational trend was difficult to break. So the penultimate question is, how did James become a tailor?

I do not believe my James was the child of John and Mary Daly because anecdotal information has my James being an orphan. It also has a brother Patrick attending his funeral in 1925. That family does not have a Patrick.

There was another child of John and Ann Meehan, Mary Jane born in 1898. I have been in contact with a descendant of hers in Wirral. Mary Jane married a Michael Finn in 1918 and had three children; Elizabeth, Eileen and Alfred. A daughter of Alfred's (Gillian) lives in Wirral with her husband Malcolm Mackenzie (with whom I have been in contact).

Many thanks,


Greg

If he was in the Brothers of Charity Institution, most of these "orphanages" whoever ran them, tried to apprentice a child to a trade, either externally or internally. By the sound of the information you have from the censuses, it would appear that his training was probably obtained in-house. This likely would have no relevance to trades already in his family but what skills those who ran the institution had to offer.

I've been digging a bit

It appears that James' siblings were still with their Uncle Patrick around 1911/12. That set me thinking why wasn't James? Was there a reason etc

Around 1911/12 James is a domestic servant at St Thomas Home Hesketh Street. This is also said to be an Industrial School & Home for working boys.

Industrial schools were usually were poor children who were considered to be at risk of perhaps getting into trouble were sent. So my theory is this.

James is a bit of a lad sometime after 1901 and is sent to the Industrial School. The main school appears to have been outside Preston (google St Thomas Industrial School Preston) Here he is trained as a tailor. In 1911 for some reason there is no job for him so he is working as a servant at St Thomas in Hesketh Street maybe he is tailoring for the monks. A job comes up and he moves away. Meets Mary get's married and lives in Longton.

Incidentally is there another name on the death certificate as I cannot find a Luneside Hospital - I was thinking that maybe there are some records somewhere.

Googling Luneside Hospital brings this up in Lancaster, in a list of 1891 census streets:
Pennys Hospital - King Street
Pennys Hospital & Santatorium * - Lune Side

More google brought a picture of the almshouses with this name, which are still there, probably an unlikely home for a young lad.


*This is how I found it, conjuring visions of white-bearded, red-coated elderly gents recovering from onslaughts of children.
D

Hilary,

I find your scenario plausible. The St Thomas Home is new to me and I will investigate further. The Census page I have has James residing at the Brothers of Charity, but he may have been counted twice that year. James' whereabouts between 1901 and 1911 are unknown. James was the oldest of the three siblings. Perhaps there was no future for him in Liverpool?

I have a Certified copy of his Death Certificate . The Luneside Hospital (Sanitorium) was in Lancaster. James died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis that he probably contracted in WWI in France.

I cannot make out the name of the Doctor that signed the certificate. It looks like A. D. Brumwin, MD, but I am not sure. James died on the 20th of December in 1925. He is buried in St. Andrews churchyard in Longton.


Greg

When you look on the 1911 census may I suggest you see both the Transcript and the actual image. there is often extra inofrmation on one.

The Luneside Hospital (Sanitorium) did exist. It had a special ward for Tuberculosis patients. Luneside is a section of downtown Lancaster.

The only other reference to this Hospital was a news story in which several patients died in 1927 as a result of a massive tidal flood. I could not find any information on where the hospital was located when it was in operation.


Greg

Hilary,

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the transcript and where can I located it? I only have the actual image of the 1911 census.


Greg

On the 1911 census you have the option to see the transcript or the actual image once you have up the person you want.

Unfortunately I can find no evidence that records for the Sanitorium at Luneside exist now.