Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi
I wonder if any of you fanastic genies could help me. My ancestors were Irish Catholics who settle in Liverpool. The family can be found on the 1881 cencus RG 11/3599 Page 14 Patrick Welsh 1845 wife Mary 1846 living in Wright Street with the children - quite a few of them. By 1891 the family has split up Mary Welsh is living with a son Thomas b 1883 and a grandson in Kew Street. Patrick has disappeared. My ggrandmother (also Mary) is living in Dundas Street with her one year old daughter.
I am looking to find the two youngest daughters Ellen 1878 and Ann 1879 and Thomas who it appears is in Walton Jail in 1901. A possible for Ellen in the 1891 cencus RG 12/2968 Page 22 is an inmate/scholar in Kirkdale. Is this an industrial school?
Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
yappie

Could you please post the full census reference? - you've missed out the folio number!

Thanks

Hilary
Ed officer

Sorry about that - its Folio 10
yappie

Hi,
Please post the census page references or all of the census years you have a sighting of the family or family members. Be an good idea to amend/edit your original post to put them in there and insert the missing folio numbers.

Re the sighting of Mary Welsh and a son Thomas in 1891 here:
RG12 / Piece:2899 / Folio:48 / Page:7.
How do you know this Thomas was born to the same Patrick and Mary Welsh/Walsh? Do you have his birth cert and does his mother's maiden name match the children on the 1881 census?

Dickiesam

Trying to find the children shown on the 1881 census in the 1891. I think these are the brothers John and Martin Walsh/Welsh:

1891:
WALSH, John - Head u/m - 23 - 1868 - Dock labourer - Liverpool.
WALSH, Martin - Brother - 14 - 1877 - Dock labourer - Liverpool.
Address: 1 House, 2 Court, Dryden Street, Liverpool, Lancashire.
RG number: RG12 / Piece:2899 / Folio:13 / Page:19.

Methinks something pretty disastrous befell this family to cause such a breakup? There were at least 9 children if Thomas bn abt 1883 is counted in.

DS

OK for everybody - 1881 census

RG11; Piece: 3599; Folio: 10; Page: 14
26 Wright Street, St Martin, Liverpool
Patrick Walsh Head M 36 Dock Labourer Ireland
Mary Wife M 36 Ireland
John son 15 Liverpool
Mary daur 13 Scholar "
Catherine daur 11 " "
Margaret daur 9 " "
Patrick son 7 " "
Martin son 5 " "
Ellen daur 3 "
Ann daur 2 "
Michael son 1 "

yappie wrote: A possible for Ellen in the 1891 cencus RG 12/2968 Page 22 is an inmate/scholar in Kirkdale. Is this an industrial school?

RG12; Piece: 2968; Folio 123; Page 22
At the top of the page, above the image gives the district - District Liverpool Industrial School, Kirkdale.

Put the words Kirkdale and Industrial into the search keywords in the Liverpool Record Office Search Page and it will show you what records and for which dates are held. You may find that the parents names are given if you check the records, so that you can confirm whether Ellen was yours.

Hi Yappie,
I agree that in the absence of a matching death this is more than likely your Ellen....

1891:
WELSH, Ellen - Inmate - 13 - 1878 - Scholar - Liverpool.
Address: Liverpool Industrial Schools, Westminster Road, Kirkdale, Liverpool.
RG number: RG12 / Piece:2968 / Folio:123 / Page:22.

This is the only near match for Ann bn abt 1879...
1891, in the household of PRICE, John - Head - Married - 30 - Dock labourer - Liverpool.
WALSH, Anna - Servant - 14 - 1877 - Domestic Servant - Liverpool.
Address: 23 Oliver Street, West Derby, Liverpool.
RG12 / Piece:2995 / Folio:44 / Page:26.

There are other Price family at the address.

DS

Before being sent to the Industrial school Ellen will have been admitted to the Workhouse. As they lived in Liverpool you may find them in Liverpool Brownlow Workhouse Infirmary.

WOW - THAT WAS QUICK. The information I have so far is:

Patrick Walsh 21 /Bachelor / Carter / Father Patrick Walsh / Labour married Mary McCormick 20 / Spinister / Father Michael McCormick / Labour 05/03/1866 at St Anthonys Chapel Sealand Road Liverpool. Both living in Wright Street.

1871 Cencus RG10 / Piece 3761 / Folio 6 / Page 5
Patrick 26 M Carter b Ireland
Mary 26 Wife b Ireland
John 4 son b Liverpool
Mary Ann 3 dau b Liverpool (my ggrandmother)
Catherine 1 dau b Liverpool

1881 you have

Catherine 21 m Thomas Duffy 08/11/1891 St Anthonys Chapel shows father deceased. I have the certificate.

Margaret 21 m James Brannigan 08/01/1894 St Aexanders Church Bootle shows father deceased. I have the certificate.

Martin Welsh m Margaret Ellen Maher 14/12/1896

John is shown on the one you don't mention living with Catherine & Thomas Duffy as

John Walsh / boarder / 43 / Marine Fireman.

A posible death for Mary Welsh / abt 1847 / 1901 / 54 / West Derby / 8b 315. Am awaiting certificate.

Dickisam - the 1891 I believe is correct for John and Martin.
and I think the Ellen on 1891 is a strong possibility. I also think the Ann living as servant to the Price family is correct. I have not yet sent for Michael's birth certificate as I have three in the post at the moment for other family members.

MaryA - you are spot on - I found a family tree on Anc* only part of which is correct and it shows many more children for Patrick & Mary. I believe they have combined two families.

Katie - Is it possible for the Record Office to search for me or is there anyone who could help as I live in Essex and not able to visit Liverpool.
May I remind you that this family is the other half of the infamous Ruddy family you helped me with last year. I have sent you a pm.

Thank you all so much for your help.

Regards
Yappie
Member 8005

If you are looking for census information I doubt the Record Office would be amenable for this as there are so many subscription sites with these available, but I'm sure you will be able to get some help with marriages/baptisms etc.

I would suggest that you make a concise list as anybody reading this thread might be confused as to what information you need next.

MaryA
Thank you for replying. I am not looking for cencus information as such but further information on Ellen Welsh 1878 and Ann Welsh 1879. The additional information I gave was in reply to questions raised by Dicksam and Katie. Sorry if I confused everyone.
yappie

Hi to Everyone who replied to my post. I just wanted to update you.
After a good nudge from Katie and the new LPRs I have now found all four daughters and followed them through their marriages, children etc.
The 4 girls (the youngest of of 13) were placed in the Workhouse aged 12 - 10 - 8 and 4 when their parents died, went into service but not in Liverpool and the rest as they say is history .

All I wanted to say was thank you so much for your help and a very special BIG thanks to Katie.

yappie

Well done, glad you got a good result.

Your welcome yappie. The information is there you just have to keep whitling away to get the answers.

Sorry Katie I have to disagree with you. If the information is too far away for you to research yourself it is due to the knowledge and kindness of people like yourself which helps to knock out the bricks.

I will add that I quite close to Essex Records Office in Chelmsford and visit regularly so if anyone needs "look-ups" I will be only to happy to return your kindness.
yappie