Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

My ancestor William Brownbill's dad was Oliver Brownbill. William was born in 1767 in Kirkby and an Oliver Brownbill married Elizabeth Trinstall (sic) in Walton on the Hill in 1763, whilst another married Ann Bretherton in Halsall in 1755.

I guess Oliver and Elizabeth are my ancestors, but no-one on ancestry knows Oliver's parents, and I wonder whether Elizabeth may have been a Tunstall from Yorkshire.

Can anyone help please?

Thank you for reading this.

Hi there and a very warm welcome to the forum from downunder!!
Good luck, I'm sure someone will help you.
All the best

Tina

Thanks Tina for the lovely welcome message.
I found an Australian second cousin through ancestry only a few weeks ago, so now I have connections downunder, which is great. Have you had success in your UK searches?

Jo

Hi and welcome to the forum.

If I were you I'd be looking around the subject and one place first off would be the Wills to see who is mentioned in them as members of family.

If you look at this post http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... ight=wills we have tried to put together a few suggestions and websites to help with this research, there is also a site that has some transcribed http://www.willtranscriptions.co.uk/index.htm

In the search results list on this site http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm I notice that there are Supra Wills for three Oliver Brownbills, one may well be the husband of Elizabeth in Kirkby, description of Kirkby, husbandman Admon. 1785. As an administration rather than a Will, I don't know just how much information will be given but it's well worth checking.

This would appear to be the burial for this man, courtesy of http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Burial: 18 Dec 1784 Kirkby Chapel, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Oliver Brownbill -
Age: 78
Notes: paid duty
Register: Burials 1775 - 1785, Page 7, Entry 214
Source: LDS Film 1545852



There are a few entries for William Brownbills, one of which could be yours.

You can order copies of these wills at the Lancashire Record Office http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/ ... =30539&e=e you will need to email them for a quote, price depends on how many pages they will need to copy for you.

You could also try searching the baptisms for, perhaps, St Chads church Kirkby to see which other children were born to William and Elizabeth and discover a family unit.

Have you also looked at burials, again St Chads might be the place for those living in Kirkby http://www.stchadskirkby.110mb.com/

Kirkby would come under the area of Walton on the Hill.

From www.lan-opc.org.uk

Baptisms of children of Oliver Brownbill he possibly has a wife caled Elizabeth however the entry on www.familysearch.org is a submitted entry and not a transcribed entry)

At St Chad's Kirkby (Kirkby chapel)
Thomas 7 Oct 1764
William 24 May 1767
John 2 July 1769 abode Knowsley
Martha 24 Feb 1771 abode Knowsley
Henry 12 Dec 1773 abode Knowsley buried 4 Feb 1775
Ellen 4 Feb 1776
Margaret 15 March 1778

The family then move to Manchester
Mary 8 October 1780 Collegiate (now cathedral) Manchester listed as daughter of Oliver and Betty

Tragedy strikes
16 Oct 1781 Ellen brought from Manchester to be buried at Kirkby

24 oct 1781 Mary brought from manchester to be buried at Kirkby
2 Jan 1784 Margaret brought from |manchester to be buried at Kirkby

Elizabeth baptised on 25 Jan 1784 at Collegiate Manchester buried Kirkby 20 Oct 1785

Marriage 25 Dec 1789
William X Brownbill husbandman of this parish
Margaret X Norris spinster of this parish
witness Henry Aspinall

is this your William?

The other family of Oliver are as follows

Oliver Brownbill and Mary Makin were married at St Helens Sefton on 13 Jan 1752. They subsequently lived in Maghull (within the parish) and had their children christened at St Andrews Maghull

17 Dec 1752 Elizabeth
21 Sept 1755 William
23 jan 1757 Ann
22 April 1759 Henry
30 Jan 1763 Thomas
3 Oct 1765 Mary
Henry 6 Sept 1767
Henry 8 Oct 1769
Ellen 15 Dec 1771
John 30 Oct 1774

The Oliver Brownbill who married Ann Bretherton was of Altcar and his wife of Halsall. They married at Halsall. Search of the parish registers may show children.

Do you have a burial for your William and does it give an age? If so that may help to work out which William is yours. If the William in Manchester is not yours you may have to search further in the local parish registers.

Tunstall is quite a common name in the Kirkby/Rainford area

Thanks so much for your helpful suggestions. I've scrolled through the burials, and found Brownbills, but not our ancestors. I've also looked through the wills, but none seem to apply to Oliver who, born around 1738 in Kirkby Walton we think, died 2nd March 1808 in Salford. Unfortunately I doubt any of this branch of our family then had enough money to pay for a headstone, let alone consider writing a will!

So I'll try the salfordgov website to see if anyone there can help and manchester burial records.

Best regards,

Joanne

You have nailed it! They definitely moved to Salford and lots of my Salford ancestors at the time were married in the Cathedral. The baptism of Mary shows that her mother was Betty - hence Elizabeth!

But it's so sad they lost so many children, and indicates they were likely in Hanky Park where their grandson and grt grandsons both called Alfred lived, and where my Mum Alice grew up. In Victorian times sanitation and overcrowding was so bad that half of the children died before reaching 5. It was pretty dire in the 1930s and 40s too from what Mum says.

The burial of William is I suspect the 30 Aug 1832 burial in Manchester Collegiate Church (didn't realise it was the Cathedral - thanks!) but it doesn't give an age. William and Margaret's son Thomas (my 3x grt grandad) was married in the Cathedral.

Thanks also for telling me abt Tunstall being quite common in Kirkby. You've been immensely helpful and I much appreciate your kindness.

Jo

The inputted marriage of Oliver to Elizabeth Tunstall given as Funshall on the old familysearch on 10 Oct 1763 at Walton on the Jill shows as Tristall on the new family search site and only gives 1763.

I think this may be St Mary's Walton on the Hill and more research is need to find out what Elizabeth's surname really is.

I got Tunstall from a fellow ancestry descendant of these Brownbills, but your point is good so I've re-examined it.

I've tried Tristrall in search all records on ancestry and got no returns, so the surname doesn't exist. Trinstall is how ancestry has it. The only return for that is their marriage and a Hannah living 1851 in Kent, so I think it's a missprint.

T*nstall - most likely Tunstall.

Funshall exists in 1861 twice: once in Herefordshire, once in Lincolnshire; and once in 1911 (funnily enough in Everton), so again I don't think it exists and these are missprints.

I think F and T can be mistaken for each other, and t and b are often mistaken, (eg Brownbill reads as Brownhill on typed transscripts of handwritten records sometimes) but Tunsball doesn't sound likely, so I again reckon it's Tunstall.

But if you have any suggestions for other research I'd be most gtrateful (preferably free please - I've bought and have on order 5 certs in the past month, trying to get Mum's tree sorted while she can still appreciate it, plus have paid 2 month's subs to ancestry).

Many thanks for all your help,

Jo

What you need is for someone to actually see the entry. At the moment you and the other Brownbill researchers are possibly working off an entry on a website that noone has actually seen.

It may be that someone is willing to look up the marriage in 1763. You need to see the actual entry rather than what it says on Ancestry or any other transcription. You may find valuable information on the actual entry.

The marriage registers are on film at Liverpool Record Office temporarily at the World Museum Liverpool.

I don't know whether you are a member of our society but you might find it helpful to join as there may well be others researching the same families as yourself. A quick look at our surname interests shows a member interested in Oliver Brownbill.

If you click on our logo top left you will find out more about the society.

Thanks so much for the surname search tip - I've checked out if I can help anyone on Ellis, my maiden name, from the limited time we were in Liverpool (no - no-one's looking for my grandad or grt grandad) and emailed a couple of other people on Denton and Brownbill, to see if they can help with those branches.

I only discovered we were descended from Brownbills after much persistence - my grt grandad had inaccurately named his father as a Ferns to conceal the fact that his parents weren't married, and from then on my mother's family's surname was Ferns and no-one had a clue abt Brownbill - until 2 weeks ago!

Hilary - it's half term next week. I might be able to bring my daughters to the Liverpool World Museum. Do you happen to know - wld I as a member of the public be able to view the wedding records?

Disappointing news just in from Mcester cathedral - pre 1837 they didn't put parents on wedding certs, so, having found no record of Oliver Brownbill in Manchester graves, or at St Chad's (isn't the gravestone transscription fabulous and so very kind?), I doubt I'll ever know his parents, since no-one seems to have a christening cert for him. But I'll keep plugging away when I have time.

Thanks so much for all yr help Hilary,

Veyr best wishes,

Jo

Hi HIlary,

Thank you very much for mentioning this. I'll consider it later. Have to get on with other jobs now!

Best regards,

Jo

Yes anyone can go into the Record Office floor 2 at the World Museum. Just tell them which church you want and they will help you.

I'm sure your daughters would enjoy the museum.

There are references to an Oliver Brownbill on the access 2 archives part of the www.nationalarchives.gov.uk website However these records are at Lancashire Record Office as they hold the Molyneux family papers (well most of them)

Hilary
Ed Officer

Thanks again Hilary, for the info on the museum and the link to the national archives site.

I couldn't see access2archives, but tried typing Oliver Brownbill and date ranges into the search engine and got a number of references to Oliver Heywood, but none to Brownbill. Did I do the wrong thing?

Thanks again,

Jo

google access 2 archives

Then when you have the search page put in Oliver Brownbill and the region as north west.

I'll be interested to hear if any male Brownbill has had a DNA test. The Huyton registers from 1580 show a variety of Bramalls, Brownbills and Bromilows, and I wonder if there is a connection between the names.

Even our forum members who won't be connected will be interested in the results of any tests undertaken, we like to know what is going on in all this new technology.

So if you manage to get any results, please let us know.

The fascinating thing with my test is that it has ruled out any link whatsoever with a Bramhall of Warrington (my name is Bramhill), though I found DNA cousins in the US with the names Bramill and Brimhall. There are also strong links dating back 600 years with people with the surname Carrington. Checking on the map, the manors of Bramhall and Carrington are about 8 miles apart, SW of Manchester. It is possible that two brothers were involved and each took the name of the manor where they lived (as either lord or serf) as their surname.
I paid about £80 for my test through Ancestry, though it's far cheaper to thump a policeman and get it done for nothing.

chiefsub68 wrote:I paid about £80 for my test through Ancestry, though it's far cheaper to thump a policeman and get it done for nothing.