Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

We are new to researching family history and are stuck
on my wife's maternal great grandfather John Miller who
was born in Garston around 1861 and wondered if anyone could suggest some further sources of information for us to investigate.

What we know:
1901 Census folio ref RG13/3507 age 40 living at 12 Mount Pleasant,
Wavertree with wife Eliza and daughters Ethel and Mary (source http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk)

1911 Census folio ref RG14/22685 his widow and daughters are lodging
at 5 Russell Road, Garston, so we know he has died between those
years (source www.1901censusonline.com)

1891 Census folio ref RG12/2981 - a John Miller age 30 born in
Garston is in HM Prison Walton (source www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk)

1881 Census folio ref RG11/3719 - a John Miller age 20 born in
Woolton is living with his brother-in-law's family at 26 Shand Street,
Garston (source www.thegenealogist.co.uk)

Questions:
How can we check if the 1881 & 1891 John Millers are the same as the 1901 John Miller who is my wife's relative?
What we are really seeking are his parents names to get
back to the previous generation(s).
How could we find out why he was in prison in 1891 and how long he
was in for?

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Do you have a record of his marriage? If you do you could send for the marriage certificate which would give you his father's name and occupation. That would be a start
Barbara

Hi Peter and welcome to the forum.

I have looked for marriages and came across these 2

Jun qtr 1897
John Miller & Eliza Houlgrave West Derby 8b 679

Sep qtr 1898
John James Miller & Eliza Jane Genders West Derby 8b 1000

If you haven't got the marriage cert for your John, these are possibilities, but let us know if you have anymore concrete evidence.

There is also a death for John Miller age 46 in Mar qtr 1907 Toxteth Park 8b 147

Cheers
Erika

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The marriages given by Erika are certainly posibilities, although I would have thought that the district would be Liverpool or Toxteth rather than West Derby, of course it might also depend on where his wife lived.

Those marriages are also, if the census is correct, later than the birth of Ethel. As you have the 1911 census that should help pinpoint the date of their marriage which could be useful in identifying the correct one.

If you have the birthdate of your direct ancestor that would be the birth certificate to order and it will give his mother's maiden name to help with the marriage.

I had hoped that there would be an entry in the quarter sessions about the jail sentence, however if there was I can't find it having been reported in the newspapers.

Firstly I agree with MaryA you need toget the birth certificate of a child of John and Eliza to find out Eliza's maiden name. Then get the marriage certifictae of the couple.

However having find the name of John's siter Elizabeth Ann from the 1881 census when he is shown as brother in law I have looked for a family of Millers in the right area and have come up with this in 1861. However until you have the proof you cannot say anything is yet correct.

1861 census Quarry St Much Woolton
William Mioller H M 31 labourer bn Garston
Mary Ann wife 32 bn L Woolton
Elizabeth Ann daur 7
William son 2
John son 5 months
all children bn M Woolton

I cannot at the moment see the family in 1871.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Once you have made sure you are on the right track this appears to be the birth registration of the John Miller with parents William and Mary Ann.

Much Woolton was in the Prescot Registration District

There are 2 possibilities both in the December Quarter
Volume 8b page 399 and volume 8b page 427

Hilary
Ed Officer

Hi and welcome

On National Archives website
Liverpool: Michaelmas 1890 QSP/4336 [n.d.]

Bill of costs of prosecution of John Miller, William Occleshaw and John Walls for false pretences
QSP/4336/67 c1890

These documents are held at Lancashire Record Office

also in 1891
RG12; Piece: 2968; Folio 110; Page 4
William Oceleshaw abt 1865 Liverpool, single
occupation; railway engine stoker
Prisoner
Kirkdale, Lancashire

1891
RG12; Piece: 2981; Folio 100; Page 26
John Walls abt 1865 , single
Occupation : fish and fruit hawker
born Wigan,
Prisoner
Walton, Lancashire

this is only the Bill of costs not so sure anymore info on it..

a while ago I had found a bill of costs on the National Archives but found more about the entry at Liverpool Record Office, in the Calendar of Prisoners

Simone x

Hi everyone
I see the crew has been busy!
E.O
I like your 1861 find especially Elzbth Ann who is married by 1881 census with bro John boarding with her.
As already mentioned, the number of years married will be on the 19## census.
There are a few marriages where the bride is Elizabeth, earlier than the two mentioned.

btw transcribed as Millen in 1891 single dock labr
(thieving from Garston docks was a part time job!!)


Tina

Hi Tina hope you are ok and keeping safe

There is another John Miller b c 1867 Wigan in Prison at Kirkdale in 1891
RG12; Piece: 2968; Folio 110; Page 4 and he is a fish and fruit hawker like John Walls, so maybe he is the one with Walls and Occleshaw

Simone x

simone wrote:There is another John Miller b c 1867 Wigan in Prison at Kirkdale in 1891
RG12; Piece: 2968; Folio 110; Page 4 and he is a fish and fruit hawker like John Walls, so maybe he is the one with Walls and Occleshaw

This seems likely and there are newspaper articles to be found for this John Walls.

From Peter:

1911 Census folio ref RG14/22685 his widow and daughters are lodging
at 5 Russell Road, Garston, so we know he has died between those
years

And Tina:

As already mentioned, the number of years married will be on the 19## census.

I gather that Peter hasn't yet found out when John Miller died other than he was dead between 1901 and the next census. So here's my two-pennorth...
Peter had found the family in 19XX at Russell Road, Garston. Elizabeth is a widow and has a son William bn [from FreeBMD] in 1905. So we can assume John was alive in 1904. Given his birth year of about 1861 would make him abt 43 in 1904. A search for deaths produce these two between 1904 and March 19XX:
Deaths Mar 1907: MILLER, John - 46 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 147.
Deaths Sep 1908: MILLER, John Adam - 44 - W. Derby - 8b - 354.

The first one, in 1907, is right for his age. And there's another positive pointer, I believe. Peter will have seen that in the 'Years married' box for Elizabeth someone wrote in 4. I think they were mistakenly indicating years widowed which coincides with 1907.

Dickiesam

Hi Simmo
Thanks for asking, very much appreciated.
Downunder we have ticked every weather box, would you believe there is snow in the Alps in Feb
Apart from out running Cyclone Vince on our Jan cruise, and our friends being evacuated in the fires, all okies me dear.

Hi D.S you busy little wombat you
When Gt Gran died in 1906 living in Garston her death was recorded in W Dby.
4 yrs widowed instead of married looks right.

Tina
Just to add Russell Rd was quite posh...

Hi again D.S
I've found a John A in census with father Stephen cab driver.
1881 cab driver 17 in Albion St.
Also in 1871.
In 1891 Stephen there with wife & kiddies, no John.

Don't know if any connection.

Tina

This may not help this post but perhaps people who google.
Stephen died in 1st qtr 1901 64yrs
Middle name of Migginson.
That's the same first name of one of his kiddies

Trivia

Tina

Hi Peter,
To help identify John Miller pre-1901 I think you should get his marriage cert.
There are a number of John Miller marriages to Elizabeth, some already posted and i will add a couple more. The cert will give you his father's name and occupation, and may tell if he is still alive or not.

To pick the right marriage you need Elizabeth's maiden name and I discounted Ethel bn abt 1895 because there are too many. But there are two almost certain births that will provide it.
1) Her daughter Mary Alice:
Births Sep 1899> Miller, Mary Alice - W. Derby - 8b - 672.
2) Her son William:
Births Jun 1905> Miller, William Charles - W. Derby - 8b - 592.

Regarding the marriage I looked from 1883 when Elizabeth would have been abt 18 and got these. I have inserted the possible spouse to match with the birth cert maiden name:
Possible spouses for John Miller - 1883 to 1887:
Marriage Jun 1884: MILLER, John [Elizabeth Robinson?] - Liverpool - 8b - 17.

Marriage Sep 1886:
MILLER, John [Elizabeth Thomas?] - W. Derby - 8b - 867.
MILLER, John [Elizabeth Fergusson?] - Liverpool - 8b - 202.

Marriage Dec 1887: MILLER, John [Elizabeth Riley?] - Liverpool - 8b - 276.

EDIT to add:
Looks as though her daughter Ethel may have died the same year as her father John....
Deaths Mar 1907> MILLER, Ethel - 12 - W. Derby - 8b - 445.

DS

Hiya Peter...I live in Garston and just to let you know that Woolton and Garston are next to each other...
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk has
John Miller born 1860 Much Woolton Liverpool MW/7/62
let me have a look around for any othe info ...where I live in Garston ,I can walk to Woolton in 30 minutes....back soon
allan

OK...the post from Erika ....
again on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
1897 Miller John - Houlgrave Eliza - Wavertree, ST MICHAEL ,Liverpool
2072/WD/2/172
Wavertree was the register office used and ST Michael is the C of E church in GARSTON....I would think that without doubt ,this is the more likely marriage because of the church in Garston ...but....born in 1860 - married in 1897 ...he would be 37 at the marriage ???...did he spend a long time in jail ?
allan

the daughter Mary is regfistered on lancsbmd
1899 Mary A Miller Wavertree Liverpool WAV/68/52

just to point out that on
freebmd Garston comes under West Derby Register
lancsbmd Garston comes under Wavertree Register

you might try www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html for any parish records

looks like Eliza Houlgrave was from Much Woolton as well registered 1868
can`t find Ethel Miller ??
how does this sound ??
John Miller and Eliza Houlkgrave have a daughter in Woolton...where they both live..NOT MARRIED ...Ethel registered 1895 ...maybe John was in jail ?
they marry 2 years later in 1897 in Garston St Michaels church
Mary Ann Miller is born 1899
they are all together in 1901 census
William E Miller is born in 1904 WAV/85/13
John dies early 1907 aged 46...the reason it`s Toxteth Park is maybe he died in The Southern Hospital which comes under T.Park ???
allan ....

Hi
Please could you tell us Eliza's age in the 19XX census, lodging in Russell Road and if a middle name is listed?
Eliza Houlgrave has a middle initial of J.
She is 24 in 1891, 15 in 1881 & 4 in 1871.

Cheers
Tina

Tina wrote:Hi
Please could you tell us Eliza's age in the 19XX census, lodging in Russell Road and if a middle name is listed?
Eliza Houlgrave has a middle initial of J.
She is 24 in 1891, 15 in 1881 & 4 in 1871.

Cheers
Tina

Eliza Miller in 1901 = 1865 bn Garston;
at Russell Road MCMX1 = bn 1871 Garston.
No middle name/initial 1901 or later. So not much help there!

Still think the birth cert for Mary A or son William is better course to take to be sure of Eliza's maiden name.

And to clarify a point raised earlier, Wavertree was a sub-district to West Derby. It did not have a Registry Office of its own. All Wavertree births would normally be registered at West Derby Registry Office for the GRO Index.

DS