James and Alice LENNON

[humbug49r]

Hello. I am new and delighted to find this site. I am hitting a brick wall with those pesky elusive LENNONs

James Lennon was my great great grandfather, he married Elinor Redhead at St. Patrick Church. That is documented. He had a daughter Alice. She married Seamus Tangney (James) also at St. Patricks, and emigrated to the usa.

I would like more info regarding the Liverpool Lennons especially anything to do with James and/or Alice. I read there was a fire which destroyed many documents, so maybe that is why I am having difficulties. or maybe I am not looking at the right places.

Is it safe to say all Lennons in Liverpool are related? Thanks so much for any info you may provide.

[Hilary]

Welcome to the Forum.

Could you please give some dates for the the people you are interested in. Also do you have them on any census? If yes please could you post details.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[dickiesam]

Hi, in addition to dates and info re census sightings that Hilary has asked for can you post the ages of Alice and James/Seamus at their marriage and his occupation?

I assume this is they:
Marriages Sep 1864 > Lennon, Alice and Tangney, James - W Derby - 8b - 939.
And FamilySearch have a marriage that would appear to be that of Alice's parents:
James Lenon(!) and Ellen(!) Redhead - 02 June 1832 at St Michael's, Liverpool, although you say they married at St Patricks.

I think this is the family in 1841. Note the presence of an Alice Redhead aged 20; probably a sister to Ellen:
LENNON, James - 30 - 1811 - Lancashire.
LENNON, Ellen - 25 - 1816 - Lancashire.
LENNON, William - 6 - 1835 - Lancashire.
LENNON, James - 0 (8 months) - 1840 - Lancashire.
REDHEAD, Alice - 20 - 1821 - Lancashire.
Address: St George Street, Liverpool.
RG number: HO107 / Piece:565 / Book/Folio:1/28 / Page:4.

I think it is safe to assume that the Alice who married James Tangney was born after the census but before 1848. Any younger and I doubt she could have married.

Looking forward to more info.

Dickiesam

[humbug49r]

I do have some dates : Alice Lennon born jan. 11, 1844.she is listed in the UK census of 1851-born in liverpool, Died 1927 Rulo Nebraska. Married August 1, 1864. At St, Patricks. 9 children

Her father James Lennon 1812-1854 (or 1859.. cant read the number)

the marriage certificate I have has geo. SHUTTLEWORTH as a witness and I presume this is a relative as I have a document (marriage) /Alice Redhead.. prob a sister of Elinor (dated Nov 1, 1845. Parents listed as :George SHutleworth (Farmer) and Jonathan Redhead (occu. Joiner)

Readng the marriage certifrcate: Alice's father is listed as James Lennon..occupation is almost unreadable: mens merchant?

I dont know if James had brothrs/sisters although I suspect the shuttleworths are part of the Lennon/Redhead/Shuttleworth clan. These are the surnames that show up on the marriage certifcates.

thanks for any info..this is all very fascinating.

[humbug49r]

I didnt answer your question: My sources say both Alice Lennon/James Tangney married at PAT (st. Patricks) and James Lennon/Elinor Redhed married at Pats. the surce is "Liverpool Area RC Marriage Index Rootsweb/Ancestry.com Hibernia

thanks.. if this source is in error I would like to correc it

[Hilary]

Before civil registration began in England and Wales in 1837 you had to marry in the Established Church (Church of England) for it to be legal unless you were a Jew or a Quaker. It is therefore very likely that James and Alice would have the legal ceremony in the C of E church St Michael and then been married in the RC chruch to be married in their faith and to satisfy the priest. Thus you get to marriages the legal one and the faith one.

There may be some different information in the C of E register

Hilary
Ed Officer

[Blue70]

Due to the high number of migrants to Liverpool from Ireland, Lennon being an Irish surname, it wouldn't be safe to presume all Liverpool Lennons are related. Irish settlement in Liverpool increased significantly towards the end of the 1700s and was particularly heavy in the mid 19th Century. One famous Liverpool Lennon has been researched below:-

http://brakn.com/jack1.html

Blue

[dickiesam]

Bit of a mystery..

Unfortunately you omitted to tell us the GRO reference for Alice's birth and the census page reference where you found her in 1851. These are the only hits I found:
Births Mar 1844> Lennon, Alice - London - 2 - 194.

And in 1851:
LENNON, Ellen A - Scholar - 12 - 1839 - bn Liverpool, Lancashire.
LENNON, Alice - Scholar - 7 - 844 - bn London, Middlesex.
Address: Catholic School, White Hart Lane, Tottenham, Middlesex.
HO107 / Piece:1702 / Folio:349 / Page:8.

Regarding James Lennon's death, this is the only hit on FreeBMD: Deaths Sep qtr 1858> Lennon, James - Manchester - 8d - 229.

And can anyone find James Lennon in 1851 with the rest of the family?

Edit for the record..
Marriages Dec 1845: Redhead, Alice and Shuttleworth, George - Lancaster - 21 - 423.

Dickiesam

[humbug49r]

I have just a couple of marriage licenses for my sources. The one for Alice Lennon and James Tangney ( another Irishman) lists their age at 18 and 21 (the first of August 1864) Both reside in Toxeth Park.. the addresses are given but for the life of me I cannot read them. Both street names are long (Hellington road?..the other one unreadable.. starts with a T or F Tavidlock street?) ughhhh, sad day when I cannot read English.

I do see a st. michael's reference on this certifricate for the general Register Office. Interesting to hear why there would be a dual type marriage to be 'legal'.. fascinating in fact.

[dickiesam]

RE:

Both street names are long (Hellington road?..the other one unreadable.. starts with a T or F Tavidlock street?

The first one is probably Wellington Road and the other is Tavistock Street.
The former has the West Derby Girls Industrial Ragged School at #60. The latter has only 5 dwellings listed including the Pheasant Inn.

Dickiesam

[humbug49r]

thank you dickysam you are a wealth of information. I have always been fascinated with theLennon/Redhead strain on the family tree. I have way more informations on the Tangneys. And this is just my dad's side.

"Ragged school"?? LOL Sounds suspiciously like the "Geneva School for Girls" my mother was "enrolled" when she was a girl.

My aim is to find out james Lennon's parents and when they left Ireland (just like I found out about the tangneys) and where in Ireland they are from. The Tangneys were from Kerry Co.

My great grandmother Lennon-Tangney came to the USA and seemed to dislike every minute of it. It didnt help they were in the middle of nowhere. (Nebraska)

Someday I have to visit both Ireland and Liverpool, take photos and pass this information along to my children and their children

Merry Christmas to you and yours
Jan Tangney

[dickiesam]

Hello Jan,
A Merry Christmas to you and yours out there in warm(?) CA!

The Ragged School Movement is very interesting. It shows another side to the philanthropic social-minded/caring Victorians. Good info here:

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/raggedschool.html

http://www.microform.co.uk/guides/G87091.pdf

RE:

I read there was a fire which destroyed many documents

I believe you are referring to Irish records? There was a fire in the Dublin Public Records Office during the Irish Civil War in the early 1920s. A number of the civil BMD records dating from 1864, when the civil register was started, were destroyed. Most of what was lost has since been restored from other sources. However, none of these would be of real interest because it appears that James Lennon was born in Liverpool abt 1811, so the Irish connection is lot earlier than 1864. It is old Irish parish records you would be chasing.

Re those two hard-to-read Wellington Road and Tavistock Street on the 1864 marriage certificates you have.. are there house numbers mentioned?

The 1832 parish record of the marriage in St Patrick's on the LOPC site is:
Marriage: 6 May 1832 St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Lennon - Elinor Redhead.
Witnesses: Henry Lett; M. Keane
Register: Marriages 1827 - 1848, Page 43, Entry 2
Source: LDS Film 396378
Unfortunately no parents mentioned.

Dickiesam

[humbug49r]

Yes there are addresses: hard to read (the handwritting is very TILTED to the right) it is 186 Wellington. definitely a ONE, but the EIGHT could be a 3. The SIX has a super long upper tail. I guess that was the style of the day

The Tavistock street is easier: 81

The Mariage license also says both parents (James Tangney, James Lennon) are deceased. sad.

yes it is relatively warm here in CA but rain is coming in. Should be a warm rain off the Pacific. We are told RAIN thru Christmas. yippee. Since we have a Mediterrean climate, we need the water.

[dickiesam]

Hello Jan,
I checked out those addresses in 1861 and 1871 looking for a possible connection to either Alice or James, but no luck I'm afraid.

Dickiesam

[humbug49r]

thanks for checking this out. I am frustrated at the dead ends. But I suppose this goes with the territory. My grandmother on my mothers side just died at 112 and was adopted so think of the dead ends I am getting with her search.

I enjoyed your links to the ragged schools.. all I can say is WOW. A slice a bread with salt was a gourmet treat. We have it so easy now. I at least can afford two slices.

I still think I can track down my elusive Liverpool ancestor..get his family back to Ireland like I did the Tangneys. Alice Lennon was an interesting person in her own right, plus having pictures of her makes her more real for me.

I give up on my mother's side: she is a Callahan. arrrrgh

jan

[djtangney]

Hello! James Lennon and Elinor Redhead also are my great great grandparents. The following record referenced in FamilySearch IGI may apply:

Jacobus Lennon
Christened: 8 May 1808 (Matches age 30 in the 1841 Census, typically rounded down to nearest x5)
Place: St Peter-RC, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
Parents: Edwardo Lennon and Ellena

Christenings for six more children are listed in 1810-18 with the same parents: Maria, Maria, Margaret, Joanna, Sarah, and Ellena.

Unfortunately, the IGI source is only a computer printout. The original church record may contain confirming info, e.g. middle name = Leonard.)

Any suggestions on how to obtain a copy of the original record would be much appreciated.

[humbug49r]

[quote="djtangney"]Hello! James Lennon and Elinor Redhead also are my great great grandparents. The following record referenced in FamilySearch IGI may apply:Jacobus Lennon

this is so weird to me as I always thought his given name was SEAMUS not Jacobus. the dates are close, that's for sure. I was also rather convinced he ws born in Ireland (not part of the TANGNEY Irish)/

anyway yes we are kin and so glad to meet you! Jan nee TANGNEY

[Blue70]

Ancestry now have a collection of Liverpool parish records including some RC records. They are in Latin so English names like James become Jacobus.

I think the use of Irish names was more a part of the later Gaelic revival onwards. Gaelic was in decline for a long time because it was an economic necessity for Irish people to speak English to get work in the English speaking towns and cities. All my Irish people in the 19th Century had the English versions of their names.

I've had a little look and noticed that the original image of the marriage entry of James Lennon and Elinor Redhead is amongst these parish records:-

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/liverpool


Blue

[humbug49r]

Ancestry now have a collection of Liverpool parish records including some RC records. They are in Latin so English names like James become Jacobus.



Blue

thanks for the information, Blue.