Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

My uncle Isaac Ike Taylor of Farnworth, Widnes, b. 1907, was in the British Army in India a couple of tours of duty, including the Khyber Pass, probably in the 1930's or 1940's. I have a photograph of him in his uniform with puttees and pith helmet. To find more information about his service I need to know which regiment he belonged to.

Any ideas about which regiments recruited soldiers in the Widnes area? I have heard that it was possibly the Royal Shropshire Regiment, but uncertain information.

Cheers
E Gandy

England Phil may be able to assist you with this question.

The 'natural' infantry regiment for Widnes would be the South Lancashire Regiment, but there was no automatic recruiting system, and men often went far from home to sign on.
The only Shropshire Regiment was the King's Shropshire Light Infantry. I do not know of any link with Widnes, but am not an expert.
If there is any badge visible on the helmet, can you scan it in as much detail as possible, likewise the whole uniform, as these may give clues to those with the knowledge.
D

Is it possible to attach a jpg file to my reply? If so, how do I do this?

Cheers

Eric

Evening, and hopefully I can help, if only a little. It is highly likely albeit not certain, that being from Widnes his Regiment would have been the Priince of Wales Volunteers, later known as the South Lancashire Regiment, especially as they had a battalion serving in India upto the start of WW2.

The following is transcribed from the Regimental History by Col B Mullay, and relates to the battalions time in India post WW1

The years between the Wars
THE SECOND BATTALION
The Second Battalion left Ireland on the 22nd and 23rd June 1920 for Pembroke Dock, preparatory to starting a tour of Foreign Service, and embarkation at Southampton on the 10th November 1920, under orders for Palestine. Disembarking at Alexandria in the 23rd, the battalion went by train to Jerusalem, where it arrived the next night and was quartered in the Russian Buildings. At this time the battalion was commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel H. C. Herbert O.B.E., who had commanded it in the inferno of the Messines. This period of duty in Palestine lasted for eighteen months and, although the situation had not then reached the depths of bitter resentment and open warfare which it was later to see, the battalion’s duties involved the always unpleasant work of maintaining order amongst a resentful civilian population. On the 4th July 1921, Colonel Herbert relinquished command and Major L. P. Anderson took over temporarily, pending the arrival of Lieutenant-Colonel W. B. Ritchie, D.S.O., who had commanded the battalion at Mons and throughout the retreat and had afterwards commanded the 12th Battalion during its short Existence.

The battalion and the whole regiment was greatly saddened by the death in Jerusalem on the 17th February 1922, of Major F. W. M. Drew, D.S.O, second-in-command of the battalion. Major Drew had passed nearly all of his service in the regiment and was one of the dwindling band of pre-1914 officers who has survived the war, having been with the battalion in the epic retreat from Mons, and having been closely associated with the 5th Battalion of the regiment at the third battle of Ypres, when he was commanding the 9th King’s in the 55th Division. Another old officer of the regiment, who died in January 1922, was Colonel A. F. G. Richardson, who had commanded the 2nd Battalion from 1897 to 1902.

During the feast of Nebi Musa in 1922, the battalion was on duty in the Holy City and was thanked by the Governor of Jerusalem for its efficient and tactful conduct at the time of this always-anxious festival when communal passions often get out of hand. In May 1922, the battalion left Palestine for Egypt and was stationed at Sidi Bishr, near Alexandria, where it remained until it embarked for India on the 1st October of the same year.

The battalion’s first station in India was Mhow, where it relieved the 3rd Battalion King’s Royal Rifle Corps, and it soon settled down to the not unpleasant routine of peacetime soldiering in India. On the 17th December 1922, Lieutenant E. C. Beard, M.C., joined the battalion on transfer from the Royal Irish regiment. This officer, now Major-General E. C. Beard, C.B., C.B.E., M.C., is, at this time of writing Colonel of the Regiment.

In the cold weather of 1923-24, the battalion carried out an interesting route march from Mhow to Bhopal and back which lasted for six weeks and was much enjoyed by all ranks who had the opportunity of seeing what rural India and the Indian States were really like, and experienced the princely hospitality of that great lady, the late Begum of Bhopla. In May 1925, Colonel Ritchie proceeded on leave pending termination of his tenure of command of the Battalion, and was succeeded by Lieutenant-Colonel B. Evans.

In December 1925, the battalion left Mhow in the ordinary course of relief’s and went to Lebong, Darjeeling, with a detachment of two companies at Barrackpore, near Calcutta. The cool and wet climate of the Darjeeling Hills and the breath-taking grandeur of the Himalayas, dominated by the massif of Kinchenjunga, as seem from Lebong, were a great change from the plains of Central India and one of the most pleasant of all the stations for British Troops in India was this one.

The period of Service at Lebong and Barrackpore passed uneventfully in the routine of peacetime soldiering, and a notable event was the presentation, at the Proclamation Parade on the 1st January 1927, in Calcutta, of the fine set of Silver drums which had been subscribed for by all ranks of the battalion in memory of their comrades who fell in the Great War of 1914-18. The presentation was made by the Viceroy, Lord Irwin, and the drums were afterwards consecrated, on the 15th May 1927, at St. Andrew’s Church, Darjeeling, in the presence of the Governor of Bengal, General Solly Flood, Colonel of the Regiment, and all officers and men stationed at Lebong. A pleasant interchange of courtesy at this time was the exchange of permanent honorary membership of each other’s messes between the battalion and the Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles, with which volunteer unit the battalion had established close relationship.

The next station was Jubbulpore, where the battalion arrived on the 4th December 1927, being inspected soon after arrival by the Commander-in-Chief, Field Marshall Sir William Birdwood. The battalion had the great good fortune to be visited at frequent intervals during its tour of duty in India by the Colonel of The Regiment, General Solly Flood, and the words which he addressed to it after one such visit are as applicable now as they were when spoken, especially in those iconoclastic days when the ancient virtues are so often held up to ridicule of the unthinking: ‘… I leave the Battalion with the assurance clearly fixed in my mind that the honour of the Regiment is dear to all members of the 2nd Battalion as it is to me. A happy family, all members of which have the fixed determination to serve not only each other but, to the utmost of their ability, The King and Country, cannot fail loyally to maintain the motto- “ICH DIEN”.’ (Jubbulpore, February 1929.)

The battalion Rugby Football side scored a notable success when it won the final of the All-India Rugby Championship by defeating Calcutta by 3 points to nil at Bombay on 17th September 1927. In addition, the battalion team won the Bombay Cup and the Calcutta League Cup, as well as the All-India Cup that year. It is interesting to note that this 1927 tournament was the first in which a cup, presented by the Rugby Football Union of England, was completed for in return for the famous Calcutta Cup. Consequently, the first name on it is that of the 2nd Battalion of the regiment. In addition to these major victories, the battalion also carried off the Cawnpore Cup for six consecutive seasons.

In May 1929, command passed from Lieutenant-Colonel B. Evans to Lieutenant- Colonel G. Shaw, M.C. There was a very great change in environment at the end of March 1932 when the battalion was sent about as far north as it could be sent, to Landi Kotal. Here it tasted something of the conditions on the frontier, and was engaged in the work of building a new fortified post at Zaman Tsappar, on the Indian-Afghan frontier, which was afterwards officially known named ‘South Lancashire Camp.’ Landi Kotal was only a one-year station for British Infantry in those days, and the battalion moved to Allahabad in March 1933, where it relieved the 1st Battalion the Cheshire Regiment.

After completing his four-year tenure of command, and over thirty years service in the battalion- Colonel Shaw left for England in May 1933, and was succeed in the command by Lieutenant-Colonel W. A. M. Montgomery.

The King’s Jubilee was celebrated at Allahabad and the battalion gained a fine record in the games and tournaments in which it competed while there. The cold weather of 1936 took the battalion to Quetta, in Baluchistan, and it arrived there on the 18th October. Before the battalion left Allahabad a memorial those of the regiment who died during its stay in that station was placed in the Garrison Church. At Quetta much of the devastation caused by the great earthquake of 1935 was still in evidence and the officers had to use ‘Wana’ huts adjoining their bungalows for sleeping purposes. By March 1938, the battalion was able to move to a set of newly built barracks. Mountain warfare training naturally took place at Quetta and all who served with the battalion there will have livid memories of all the austerities of training and the great degree of physical fitness and self-reliance produced by this form of military activity.

The battalion’s tour of duty at Quetta came to an end in November 1938, when it went to Bombay in the ordinary course of relief’s, arriving there on the 18th November. Shortly before leaving Quetta the official title of the regiment was changed to ‘The South Lancashire Regiment (The Prince of Wales Volunteers).’ The great storm was about to burst upon the long-suffering world, and so it was that the Second Battalion of the Regiment had the fortune to be in Bombay when war was once again declared against Germany on the 3rd September 1939. It was not, however, to remain for long in comparative idleness, and the varied and interesting part which it played in the great struggle is narrated in later chapters.

The collapse of British dominion in India, euphemistically referred to as the ‘transfer of power’ has finally closed one of the greatest chapters in our history, not the least gracious feature of which was the comradeship between British Soldier and his ‘opposite number’ of the old Indian Army.

The 2nd Battalion, like all other British battalions in India, bore an Indian Machine Gun Platoon on its establishment. These men, although they were mule leaders and not gun members, were trained infantry soldiers and every possible effort was made to make them feel as mush a part of the battalion as possible. The battalion’s original platoon was composed of Punjabi Mussulmans, but in 1934 these ‘P.Ms’ were replaced by Mazbi Sikhs of the then disbanded Sikh Pioneers.

These men came from a corps with a proud record and it was hard in them to be relegated to the role of ‘drabi’ or mule leader, in a British Battalion, but everything possible was done to make then feel at home, even to allowing then to enter for the inter-platoon hockey tournament, which they promptly won! The result was a creation of a happy relationship, which brought its reward of mutual esteem and a thoroughly efficient Machine Gun Platoon.

Thank you Phil for your informative reply, fascinating stuff.

I understand there is a regimental museum which might help me obtain details of my uncle's service record. I will try this and see how far I get.

Cheers

Eric

egandy wrote:Thank you Phil for your informative reply, fascinating stuff.

I understand there is a regimental museum which might help me obtain details of my uncle's service record. I will try this and see how far I get.

Cheers

Eric

Evening Eric, there is, but I suspect that your Uncle also served during ww2 in some capacity, so his records will still be with the Veterans office in Glasgow.

The museum will do an archive search but will charge you for the privlage. Do you know his server number or anything like that ?

P

You can't attach a picture directly on this forum, but it's not difficult if you follow these directions.

http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=9817

http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i329/abbott110/

Thanks for the help with instructions for attaching a photograph. Here is my uncle, Isaac Taylor, in army uniform ready for India. Sorry, no pith helmet. Difficult to identify any regimental badge or other identifying features.

He was born in 1907, and from the photograph looks to be quite young, so this would be be 1935 if he was 18 years old.

Cheers

Eric

The collar badge could certainly be that of the Kings Shoropshire Light Infantry.

The 1st Battalion of the KSLI spent the interwar years in India, returning to the UK in Sept 1939, after which it went to France with the BEF

Thanks Phil. This would fit in with family heresay. I will try to scan in the badge as suggested by Mary A.
Cheers
Eric.

Hi again Phil

I have now scanned in Isaac Gandy's collar badges with higher resolution.
Cheers
Eric

http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i329/abbott110/

Hi Phil
Wow thank you for such an informative post.
I sent the link to cuz Tommy (Garston) and he asked me to pass on his thanks for the information you sent.
He's always had an interest in India, so you've made him happy!!
After our great uncle had finished fighting the Bolsheviks in Archangel (with Kings Lpool) he went to India, we believe with a diffo regiment.
He was, according to old family memories, in the Andaman Islands between 1922-1929, guarding prisoners??? Maybe Indian men uprising against the Brits??
Would you have any info Phil about the regiments who served during these years.
Big ask. Thanks in advance.
Tina

egandy wrote:Hi again Phil

I have now scanned in Isaac Gandy's collar badges with higher resolution.
Cheers
Eric

http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i329/abbott110/

The Collar badges, are certrainly one belonging to one of the 'Light' Infantry Regiments, but I am afraid I cant say which one for sure.

I suspect that you will have to apply for his service record to be 100% sure.

P

Tina wrote:Hi Phil
Wow thank you for such an informative post.
I sent the link to cuz Tommy (Garston) and he asked me to pass on his thanks for the information you sent.
He's always had an interest in India, so you've made him happy!!
After our great uncle had finished fighting the Bolsheviks in Archangel (with Kings Lpool) he went to India, we believe with a diffo regiment.
He was, according to old family memories, in the Andaman Islands between 1922-1929, guarding prisoners??? Maybe Indian men uprising against the Brits??
Would you have any info Phil about the regiments who served during these years.
Big ask. Thanks in advance.
Tina

Hello Tina, I am afraid my info only really relates to the South Lancs regiment.

May be worth while just googling British Army in India etc

P

Thanks for your time Phil

Tina