Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello all

After years of trying to find a way forward with this may I kindly ask for some assistance from those who know far more than me! I am trying to pickup the trail of my grandfather George William Thompson (There may be a third name of Henry in there according to my parents marriage cert but that's the only place it shows up) This guy died in 1930 when my dad was 7 and my dad died in 1985 so there is nobody to ask.

I know from my granddads mariage certs and death certs and census records the following but thats about it:

1) A rough birth date for him of 1888 in Liverpool Lancs.
2) His father was also called George William Thompson and a blacksmith.
3) He was a servant in Nantmel Radnorshire at 13 years of age living with a family of thompsons that allegedly were not his own family as they put him down as a 'cattle boy' and not son or nephew on the census, plus they were all from Nantmel and he was from Liverpool. (Which leads you to wonder why he was there anyway at 13)
4) He married on the 26 3 1914 to Lena Selena Dykes (various spellings of the name) and they had 4 kids my father being one.
5)He died in 1930 on the 15th Dec (the death cert says aged 45 but the time line doesn't fit, he had to be younger if he was in service in 1901 aged 13, maybe 43 when he died?

Has anybody tried tracing a george william thompson with a dad called george william thompson born in liverpool in and around 1888, give or take a couple of years - there's loads of them! I simply do not know how to move forward, or how to work out which family is his, if any of them, in the liverpool area. I have tried to look at census records, parish records, BDM records and I can't even tie it down to a birth date for him - I have found brief war records from WW1 as I knew he was in the London Rifles due to it being stated on his eldest sons birth cert but still cannot find a birth date from them.

any help and/or guidance would be much appreciated - thank you for taking the time to have a read through that lot.

all the best - Ric

Welcome to the forum

Do you have any evidence that he was born in Liverpool? Why I ask is that as I read your list the first mention of Liverpool is at his marriage. incendentally it might help searchers if you could post all the details from the certificate. Just realised you mention census.

Please could you post the details?

You say he was in the London Rifles and have some details could you also post all of that. London Rifles seems slightly unusual for someone in Liverpool but I know people were moved around to fill gaps.

Lastly what was his occupation?

Hilary
Ed Officer

His army papers show him as being in the Royal Weslsh Fusillers. I think I have the right person his wife living at Howey Llandrindod Wells and the birth of a son in 1917 with a name missing and then George Harry or Henry checks with the birth of a child William George H in 1917 mother's maiden name Dykes registered Builth.

I cannot find any George William Thompsons who are blacksmiths in the relevant census. I am wondering if the father died when his son was very young and that is why he perhaps ends up on some distant relatives' farm.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I've been looking at births, particularly since it would seem that the 1911 census entry (checked from the free index) confirms his birthplace and date, and it would seem that there is only one with the full name

George William Thompson Q3 1888 West Derby 8b 314.

Would you think it worthwhile taking a punt on this certificate? but if so I would suggest that you don't specify a father's name as you might be disappointed. I would, however, be interested to know his mother's name and address.

Hello Ric,
Taking a flyer at this.. have you looked at the 1911 census page? As MaryA says there is only one there in the free index, still in Radnorshire. It would be worth buying credits to see where he is and what his occupation was at that time.

It would also be a help if you posted his occupation from his marriage cert to see how and where he had progressed from a 'cattle boy'. As to how he came to be a cattle boy, it's a possibility that his father was a journeyman blacksmith; a journeyman being a tradesman who worked by the day for no fixed employer. It's also possible he was put on that farm from a reform school or similar establishment.

Looked for blacksmith George Thompson/Thomson etc, 1881 to 1901, and found only one likely candidate in Salford in 1891. He was born in Birkenhead, Cheshire and has 2 children born 'Manchester' and Salford. RG12 / 3222 / 69 / 13.
There's no young George there but he could have been elsewhere on census night and there are a couple that might be him.

I'd take a chance on the 1888 West Derby birth cert.

Incidentally, Lena Selina Dykes was born simply Selina. Lena was her familial name...
Births Mar 1889> Dykes, Selina - Kington [Herefordshire] - 6a - 530.
Then I found her as Celina in 1891.

Dickiesam

Provided I found the correct marriage the bride is listed as Lilian S Dykes on www.freebmd.org.uk

My feeling there is that there is some relationship between the Thompsons of Nantmel and GW. Maybe his mother went to Liverpool for work. I also looked for GWs who are blacksmiths in Wales but to know avail.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Like Hilary I thought there could be a relationship between the Thompsons of Radnorshire in 1901, and George William the blacksmith.

I have backtracked the head of the 1901 family, David, thru' every census, to his father John bn 1836 and then finally to his g.father William Thompson bn 1816 and still in Radnorshire in 1841. There's no sign of a George anywhere.

As well as David's father John, William bn 1816 had sons William bn 1846, Joseph bn 1848 and Thomas bn 1850. So maybe the link is with one of them because they probably wouldn't have inherited the family farm and would have to make their own way in the world.

David, bn in Nantmel in1865, married a Gertrude Maria Lewis in Radnor in Sep 1896. She was born in Nantmel in 1874 so he married close to home.

For the lesser-in-years members of the crew Radnorshire, an 'extinct' county since I think 1974, was the next county to Shropshire heading south! Now part of Powys.

Dickiesam

hello all and thanks a bunch for the help so far, i will answer in sequence,
Education Officer: Royal Welsh Fusiliers (same as my father was in WW2), Interesting it def. said the London rifle Reg on William George Birth Certifcate and you are right that is his son, (wife L S dykes) and they did come from Howey nr Llandrindod wells in Wales and he died there too. Thanks for the help it is much appreciated. The census entries said he was from Liverpool lancs in 1901.
Mary A: George William T, you only found 1 matching, I must have done something wrong I found more lol, I cannot of course find his mothers maiden name or address as I do not know it, I shall chase up that george you have detailed though thankyou.
Dickieson; His occupation from cattle boy moved to general labourer. I did buy credits for the 1911 census at one point when it first came out but the entry was corrupted - I should try again. I would say though that there was only that one entry at the time and I knew him of course, its his birth date i need to find so i can unlock his dad and trace the line back but you all know this far better than I and i'm just thrashing around trying to understand it all.

Thnk you very much for your help,

best wishes - ric

i understand what you're saying there because it crossed my mind too, a george william Thompson aged 13 as a servant with a family of thompson's int he wild's of Wales but my documents are clear this end.

George has his dad as being george william thompson, a blacksmith, on his wedding certifcate on the 26 3rd 1914 and consistently he claims throughout that he came from Liverpool Lancs on all his docs.

I wonder about his birth date though and if he could have been born in 1890? I have a family that I have found in Liverpool Lancs whose father was george william thomspn and trade stated as being a coachman groom, wife mary thompson with a son george thompson aged 1 and a brother william about a month old from 55 dyke street, everton, liverpool on the 1891 census - does anybody think there is mileage in this line of enquiry??

all the best - Ric

As I understand it you have only one document that gives his father's details - and that's on his marriage certificate.

I am often suspicious when somebody gives an exact duplication of their own name as their father's, especially when there is a great deal of difficulty finding him. They often gave the name at the marriage ceremony to save face.

As for him being born in Liverpool, that may be quite true, his mother may have gone to Liverpool to have a child, although he still might be connected to the Wales family as a cousin perhaps rather than any closer relationship.

There are a few births for George William Thompsons, around the year we have been basing the research on +/- 1 or 2, but if you check many of them are in the Manchester or Prescot areas, there is only the one of the correct date in the Liverpool area and that is the one in the West Derby registration district.

The family you have found in 1891 is definitely worth investigating, just keep an open mind and also see if there is any way they might connect to the family in Wales, as I wouldn't rule out a family connection there.

Hello Ric,
RE:

His occupation from cattle boy moved to general labourer. I did buy credits for the 1911 census at one point when it first came out but the entry was corrupted - I should try again.

You should have another go and tell us where he is. I am guessing cattle boy to bailiff?

Where did 'general labourer' come from?

Dickiesam

ESP maybe Dickiesam? haha like your guessing!

Thank you very much for your efforts Mary A,

that was what I found with the various numbers but hdad not clarified it down to just one person there seemed so many of them, having a further pair of eye's is helpful. So it comes down to the West Derby birth cert by the sound of it and maybe look at the 1990 birth line with the george thompson father and 1 year old george thompson son; I must say though on this one from Everton I have tried to pickup the trail already going backward and just get bogged down which is down to my inexpereince I suppose.
I tried to find their marriage first of all but no luck via hughwallis as well as on ancestry etc but with so many george thompsons with an approx birth year of 1866 born again in Liverpool lanc (which he is according to the 1991 census) I can't narrow it down enough so have no chance of picking up the family line to see if there is a welsh connection. All I have is the census info from the 1991 entries:

george thompson head coachman groom aged 25
mary thomspon spouse 25
george aged 1
william aged 1/12
mary cummings border aged 55 from scotland (shame it didn't say wales)
and they all lived at dyke st, everton, liverpool.

any suggestions gratefully received for picking up this line to see if I can cross-reference.

many thanks for all your valued help folks from a freezing and foggy shropshire

ric

Hi Dickiesam

it came from the marriage certificate mate according to my notes here 26/3/1914 same doc. where it is stated that georges dad is also called george william thompson and is a blacksmith

ric

Found this baptism of Beta Search

Name George William Thompson
Gender Male
Baptism/Christening Date 29 Jul 1888
Baptism/Christening Place Holy Trinity, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Father's Name Joseph Thompson

Mother's Name Mary Ellen

Indexing Project (Batch) Number I03147-6
System Origin England-EASy
Source Film Number 1656018
Reference Number item 5 p 25

hello Katie

Thanks for the baptism info but how on earth do I know if its my georgy boy?? I would possibly think that although it is the right time the fathers name is wrong so maybe not (though Mary A said he may have lied about his father)this is where i am stuck, I have a george william thompson from liverpool who says his dad is george william thompson.

all the best - Ric

Check down www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

By the ages of the children we would be looking around 1888 for a marriage. Give or take a bit I searched from 1885 - 1891 and found just one in Liverpool, that is assuming they did marry in Liverpool

George Thompson married Mary Doran Q4 1888 St Peter, Liverpool (GRO Ref. Liverpool 8b 201 )

The Army papers are on www.ancestry.co.uk if you have no subscription you can usually access them at your local library.

They clearly state he was born in Liverpool. All the information in them point to him being your man with the addresses in the area.

Do you have any medals for him? These will have his army numnber on them and should tie in to the Army number on his papers.

I would not discount the possibility that the father's name is made up.

The big question to me is where is he in 1891 at the age of 3?

Hilary
Ed Officer

Ric, I'd be very cautious about that 55 Dyke Street family in 1891 being the right one. Although both trades are horse-connected, trade-wise it's a very long way from coachman to blacksmith. Besides making horse-shoes, the latter was the general all-round mechanical engineer of the time. If it was metal and could be forged he could make or repair almost everything. It was an apprenticed trade so I doubt if a 25 year old coachman would become a blacksmith in later life.

Background? The Dyke Street George T seems to have married a Mary Doran in Dec qtr 1888 [Liverpool].

Dickiesam

Hi R Paris

That baptism at Holy Trinity I will have a quick look tomorrow to check the fathers profession to rule him out.

I will do a quick look up at the St Peters marriage as well