Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all

I am requesting advice about a marriage

I am researching my Leonard ancestors for my very elderly relative

I am trying to find a marriage for James Leonard born about 1845 in Liverpool
I have census returns for the year 1871, 1881 and 1891 where his wife is stated as Mary born Liverpool about 1848

1871-Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3760; Folio: 142; Page: 31; GSU roll: 841879.

In 1881- Class: RG11; Piece: 3707; Folio: 73; Page: 24; GSU roll: 1341887.

In 1891-Class: RG12; Piece: 2992; Folio 50; Page 16; GSU roll: 6098102.

I have researched several sites and I have only found 1 marriage in 1868 Liverpool where Jame's wife is Mary O'Brien
It does not give me details of the place of marriage

I have looked on Family Search hoping for their fathers names but no luck
Before I order the certificate I would appreciate any advice

Regards

Lorraine

I would suggest you obtained the birth certificate of one of James and Leonard's children. If you get the one that belongs to your relative this will prove you have the right family (there seems to be a few James leonard around) and it will also give you the mother's maiden name. Then you can look for the marriage of the couple.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Hi,
In the 1871 census, for which you kindly supplied the page reference, a daughter Margaret is shown as 6 mths old. That would put the birth in the Dec qtr of 1870, or the very end of the Sept qtr.
This is the only birth that fits: Dec qtr 1870: LEONARD, Margaret Kate - Liverpool - 8b - 141.

If Mary's YoB was about 1848, then the earliest she could have married, in normal circumstances, would be about 1865. I suggest you follow Hilary's advice and get the birth cert for the above Margaret.

I then looked at the 1891 census reference you gave and found a son James born abt 1887, but no sign of his mother. I checked FreeBMD and found this: Births Jun 1887> Leonard, James Ernest - W. Derby - 8b - 289.

So then looked at baptisms http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/index.htm
And found: 1887-3927 - ALL SOULS - YoBirth 1887 - YoBaptism 1887 - JAMES ERNEST LEONARD - Father = JAMES; Mother = MARY; Maiden name O'MALLEY.

That clashes with the most likely marriage.. Mar 1868> Leonard, James and O'Brien, Mary - Liverpool - 8b - 234.
So it's safer to go for a birth cert.

It looks as though by 1901 the family had 'broken up' somewhat, with a daughter Norah [bn 1880] an inmate in Rice Lane Workhouse and the son James [bn 1887] in an orphanage.

Dickiesam

Liverpool History Projects website Dickiesam gave above has a marriage of James Leonard to Mary O'Malley in 1884 at St Michae's RC. So was James married twice?

You definitely need the birth certifictae of your relative's ancestor to sort this ought.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Hi

Thankyou both for all that information

I did try and find a feference today for a birth for my GGrandfather Thomas Joseph Leonard so I could order his birth certificate but there were several Thomas/Joseph Leonards
So I think it is best to order Margarets birth certificate

Thankyou

Lorraine

Hi Lorraine,

a reference today for a birth for my GGrandfather Thomas Joseph Leonard

He is new to this thread so where have you found Thomas Joseph Leonard and how do you know he is a g.g.father? Any dates or census sightings for him?

Dickiesam

Hi Dickiesam

I was told this week that my GGrandfather Thomas Leonard father of my Grandmother Margaret Leonard born 1899 who married George Edward Smith in 1918 Sacred Heart Church Liverpool married a Cecilia
I did some research and found 1 Thomas Joseph Leonard who married a Cecilia Purcell
On Family Search Reference Number it 494 p 213 no 426 source film number 93939
Father of Thomas Michael Joseph Leonard and father of Cecilia is John Purcell
In the 1901 Census they are living in Rothwell Street Everton- RG13 PIECE 3486 FOLIO 27 PAGE 46
In 1911 they are living in 9 Severs Street but I have mislaid the RG number but I have it saved somewhere on my computer
I will look for more details when I return from work tonight

Lorraine

Thanks Lorraine for 1901 info.
They were boarding with Murphy's in Everton.

Tina

Hi,
From the 9 Severs Street info, FreeBMD has:
Marriages Jun 1894: Leonard, Thomas Joseph and Purcell, Cecilia - Liverpool - 8b - 72.

And FreeBMD has:
Births Dec 1877> Leonard, Thomas Joseph - Liverpool - 8b - 7.
He's the only Thomas J between 1870 and 1880. It is possible he lied about his age when he married. In 1894 he would have been only 17 and too young to marry without parental consent. Easy enough to add, or lose, 5 years for the rest of one's life. Happened at least three times in my lot!

Don't bother posting the census page reference for 1911 because we, as 3rd parties, are not allowed to post any comment etc from looking it up. It's a breach of FMP's T&Cs to do so and will result in the banning of a subscriber.

Dickiesam

Hi
Thanks for all that information

I think I have found my missing Mary Leonard from the 1891 Census
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2967; Folio 124; Page 31; GSU roll: 6098077.

I think she may have re-married as there is a Mary Jane Ennis living with her husband and children and also Step Children to the Head are John Leonard 16 and Mary Ann Leonard 8
I have also found a marriage of a Mary Ann Leonard to a Thomas Ennis in 1884 Lancashire BMD, it does not state that Mary had previously married
This seems too much of a coincidence dont you all think
Any advice much appreciated

Lorraine

Sorry

It's Mary Ann Ennis and it states that she was born in Dublin

Lorraine

Hi Lorraine
Well done 1891 & marriage find too
Thomas Ennis was from Dublin also.
For the crew they were in Haddock St Kirkdale.

1901 dghtr Mary is with Mum, her surname as Ennis, there's Catherine who was 2 in 1891 & Thomas 9, Christine 6.
Thomas Ennis must be at sea.
Esk St Kirkdale.

There's a John Leonard in Walton Jail 1901

Sorry no luck finding marriage, looked in Lancs OPC also Catholic Marriages.

As Dickiesam said we don't mention the next census taken between 1910-12 because of copyright/membership issues.

Tina

Hi

I think I may have got the previous information wrong because in the 1891 census James b 1887 the youngest Leonard is living with his dad and siblings, yet his mother married in 1884 to Thomas Ennis
It is all very bizarre because Mary Ann Leonard's marriage to Thomas Ennis does not state that she had married before

Lorraine

Ho hum??
Crossed wires somewhere do you think folks??

Back to 1891 just to recap
17 Butler St
James genl labr 46 married bn Lpool
Margaret 20, Daniel 14, Norah 11, Katharine 7, James 4 all bn Lpool.

I've found a Mary Leonard 44 married housewife bn Lpool patient in Stanley Hospital 1891 census. (they have her listed as partner )

As Dickeysam wrote, Norah in the workhouse in 1901 poor lass.
There's a birth in W Dby 1884 for CATHERINE Leonard.

Not sure if I'm side tracking here but there is a Margaret Leonard 28 and a Catherine 16 both working as chambermaids over the water in 1901 both bn Lpl, Castle Hydro Leasowe.

Tina

Hi Tina

I have all that information too so I don't know why I side tracked to another Mary
I'm doing about 4 family trees for various family memebrs and they all begin to mingle as 1 family
Regarding Thomas Joseph Leonard, I rang Liverpool City Council where you order the certificates and they told me to send as many details about all Thomas Leonards including siblings and they will do a search for me

I did that previously for my GGGrandmother Julia Ann Dalton and they sent me a marriage certificatre for Julia Emma Dalton as there were no other marriages, so I am stuck on that one now

Lorraine