Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I hope someone can help me solve a mystery.
I have a marriage certificate
27th Sept 1885 at St. Simon, Liverpool
Joseph Davies, bachelor, 28yrs., engineer, 41 Gloucester Street, father, Joseph Davies, pitman
Catherine Neagle, spinster, 21yrs., 41 Gloucester Street, father, John Neagle, cardriver.

In 1891 they are found at 14 Mission Square, West Derby
Joseph is 33yrs., engine driver and brewers labourer, born Liverpool

In 1901 they are found at 28 Iliad Street, Everton
Joseph is 42yrs., static engine driver, born Liverpool

In 1911 they are found at 14 Botha Street, Higher Openshaw, Manchester
Joseph is 51yrs., married 26yrs., engine driver, born Liverpool

Their son, Frank, married in 1918 at Droylsden, Manchester, his father Joseph a stationary engine driver is deceased.

The problem I have is that I can't find Joseph in a census prior to his marriage
There is a Joseph aged 18yrs., engineer, son of Joseph, blacksmith, in 1871. I can't find this Joseph in 1881. I know the age is wrong, but did he lie about his age when he married.

There is another Joseph, son of Joseph and Ellen, who is aged 24yrs., in 1881, but he is a mariner and there is a Joseph, aged 34yrs., working as a boatman in 1891.

Can anyone solve the mystery of where he is prior to his marriage, I've had no problems with his wife, her family are easily found.

Any help would be gratefully received.

Vanessa

With the father Joseph being described as a pitman I immediately thought of colliery and wondered if perhaps your Joseph wasn't born in Liverpool. I came up with this one

RG11 3742 folio 14 page 22 1881 census
Barrownook Bickerstaffe
Joseph davies H M 62 colliery lab bn Shropshire
Ann wife 56
Joseph son 21 engineer at colliery (driver)
William son 13 colliery lab
John Harriosn Davies grandson 8

everyone else born Bickerstaffe

Hilary
Ed Officer

Thought you had something there, but when I checked he was still in Bickerstaff in 1891, aged 31yrs. and married, now a coal miner.

Thank you for looking, fresh eyes usually see what I don't.

Vanessa

Blow!

Maybe another colliery man is him!

Hilary
Ed Officer

Hi Vanessa

hope you don't mind me posting the other info we discussed today.. just in case someone go the same route again don't want to make extra work

1871 at Eastlake Street
RG10; Piece: 3819; Folio: 19; Page: 32
Joseph Davies 59 b Whitchurch
Eliza Davies 56
John Davies 23
Eliza Davies 20
Joseph Davies 18 Engineer
Kate Hupe 8 grandaughter - not convinced this name is right, really bad image

which then led to

1881
RG11; Piece: 3665; Folio: 21; Page: 36
9 Eastlake Street
Joseph Davies 69 b Whitchurch, Blacksmith
Elizabeth Davies 66
Elizabeth Main 15 grandaughter


1861

RG9; Piece: 2651; Folio: 211; Page: 41
47 Virgil Street
Joseph Davies 48 Shipsmith
Elizabeth Davies 46
Ellen Davies 19
John Davies 12
Elizabeth Davies 10
Joseph Davies 8
John Edwards 1 nephew


1851
HO107; Piece: 2176; Folio: 614
at Eldon Place
Joseph Davies 37 Blacksmith b Whitchurch, Shropshire
Elizabeth Davies 36 b Llandudno
Ann Davies 13
Mary Davies 11
Helen Davies 9
John Davies 2
Elizabeth Davies 7 MO

1841
HO107; Piece 555; Book: 7 ; Enumeration District: 9; Folio: 25; Page: 4
Gascoyne Courts
John Owens 50 Whitesmith
Ann Owens 65
Ann Cotterse 20
James Coyle35
Jane Coyle 30
Ann Coyle 15
Joseph Davies 30 labourer,
Elizabeth Davies 25
Anne Davies 8


from lancs OPC
Marriage: 14 Sep 1835 St Martin in the Fields, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph Davies - Blacksmith Bachelor of this Parish
Elizabeth Edwards - (X), Spinster of this Parish
Witness: William Woodend, (X); Sarah Davies, (X)
Married by Banns by: Cecil Wray Ass.Minister
Register: Marriages 1829 - 1837, Page 234, Entry 700
Source: LDS Film 1656205


marriage of daughter Ellen
Henry Main m Ellen Davies Lpool Holy Triniy 1863

1871
15 Susan Street
RG10; Piece: 4054; Folio: 61; Page: 32
Henry Main 30 tobacconist, b Liverpool
Ellen Main 29 b Whitchurch
Henry Main 7
Elizabeth Pheobe Main 5
Sarah Ann Main 4
Joseph Wm Main 1 Month


witnesses at marriage of Joseph to Catherine are
Witnesses, Thomas Dixon and Elizabeth Rooney
but can't get them to lead anywhere

so whilst it looks good that this Joseph is an engineer, no sign of him in 1881

I did wonder if Joseph Snr could have had Smith work in the pits

I don't think the age difference it too much to worry about is it? ages often vary, and I certainly have some not quite right at marriage



Simone x

Hi,
Re:

Kate Hupe 8 grandaughter - not convinced this name is right, really bad image

Re the 1871 at Eastlake Street - RG10 - 3819 - 19 - 32.
Her name is Kate HARPER. Quite clear on my scan of the page.

Dickiesam

Thanks Brian

Is that with Anc*, my image is really, really faint

1860
HARPER James DAVIES Ann Liverpool, Holy Trinity Liverpool 2103LP/2/312


Simone x

Hi Simone,
My image is from elsewhere (!). It is faint but much clearer than the Anc image. You can see the r in the middle and at the end.



Dickiesam

yep can make it out now thanks

Just been thinking things through and one thing puzzles me.

When they married they gave the address 41 Gloucester Street, which I thought was a lodging house, but when I look at the census, No 37 is a lodging house, 39 isn't and 41 doesn't exist. Why give that address ?

At the marriage she says her father is a car driver. I know that in 1881 she is living at 22 Warren Street, a shop, Liverpool, where her father is a baker. In 1891 he is at 54 Greenside, West Derby, where he is a groom and car driver. This makes me think that this is where her family were living at the time of her marriage. Is this the area Joseph was also living, he must have met her somehow. Is there a pit in this area? I'm thinking of searching the 1881 census page by page, I have it on CD, but would like to narrow the search down to an area first before doing a wider one. So an area with a pit near to where the Neagle family were living in 1891 would be my first choice. So if anyone can suggest piece numbers it would help, I'm afraid I know little about the Liverpool and West Derby area.

Vanessa

No pits in Liverpool

I hardly like to suggest this but have you got the right marriage? I mean have you got the birth certificate of one of your direct ancestors which shows the maiden name of the mother and Joseph's occupation. It does seem a little odd that the fatehr is no longer a baker.

I only ask because there is another Joseph Davies marriage to a Catherine McKnight in 1881.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Yes I have the birth certificate of their son, the mother is Catherine, maiden name, Neagle. Joseph's occupation is stationary engine driver. When their son married, his father is still a stationary engine driver, though deceased. There is one possibilty that he lied about his father, when my gt grandfather married he made up a father's name to cover the fact he was illegitimate, but I should still be able to find Joseph in 1881 aged about 23yrs., working with engines, but no sign. Unless he too had a radical change of occupation.

Vanessa

there seem to be 2 John Neagle's in the census, 1 married to Mary, 1 married to Margaret. I am thinking the 1881 census entry you have may not be the right one and that may be why the occupation not fitting, but my eyes and brian are just too tired and fuzzed up tonight to sort them,, sorry
suppose he could have just lost his business and then did what he could, Michael who is with him age 52, could be brotther and could have got him into car/grooming

back tomorrow

Simone x

The children of John and Mary Neagle, baker, in 1881 and John and Mary Neagle groom and car driver in 1891, match both couples, only Catherine and Elizabeth are missing.
To be honest John and Mary Neagle are bakers at the same address in 1871, so I can only imagine something happened after 1881 to cause him to lose his business.

Vanessa

Hi

Found this on Lancs OPC.. just putting it here whilst I have a look round

Marriage: 25 Oct 1846 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph Davies - Full Miner Widower of Bahama Street
Catherine Williams - (X), Full Spinster of Pall Mall
Groom's Father: Thomas Davies, Miner
Bride's Father: John Williams, Labourer
Witness: Ann Griffiths, (X); John Hughes
Married by Banns by: Robt. Davies Minister
Register: Marriages 1845 - 1849, Page 103, Entry 205
Source: LDS Film 1656374

I've tried to find this couple in 1851, but no luck.

Vanessa

Me too Vanessa Joseph may just be listed as a labourer or something

family could be from out of area too. It wasn't unsual for peopel from areas like St Helens, Wigan, to come in to Liverpool to marry, I've seen a few of those

still keep looking at Joseph the engineer in 1871.. wish we could find him in 1881.. just need something to tie him up to your marriage

Simone x

Yes my Gt Grandparents eloped to Liverpool from St. Helens, they stayed at lodgings and gt grandmother's sister and future husband were witnesses. Gt. Grandfather lied about his age, he was 19yrs., and said he was 21yrs. also lied about his fathers occupation, he was a glassmaker and said he was a labourer.
I keep looking at the Joseph Davies, engineer, in 1871. Did you know that the parish was St. Simons, the church Joseph and Catherine married at.

Vanessa

Hi Vanessa

don't know where I'm going with this yet, not far but want to get it down before I lose it. .. and will have to come back later but found that Elizabeth Phoebe Main in Llandudno in 1901, listed as cousin in the Williams household...one of the step children in the house, a Davies, has the name Edwards as a 3rd christian name, and Elizabeth Edwards, Phoebe's grandmother, (mother to Joseph the Engineer), was born in Llandudno

there are also other Davies' family in the house, step children, but born in Llandudno

RG13; Piece: 5290; Folio: 107

Richard Williams 50
Mary Elizabeth Williams 46
Arah Annie Edwards Davies 23
Richard John Ressie Davies 17
Elizabeth Phebe Main 35
Vitoria Pendergast 20
Joseph Evans 14


It's also coincidental that they are in the Williams houeshold, remember Joseph, Miner married Catherine Williams.. but this surely has to be coincidental., and Joseph the engineer can't have 2 sets of parents can he

To briefly sum up until I get it straight

At the moment it looks like Joseph the Engineer, had a sister Ellen who married Henry Main, they had a daughter Elizabeth Phoebe who is living with her garnparents in 1881 and Williams cousins in Llandudno in 1901.

But still doesn't find Joseph in 1881, perhaps he is in Wales then

I know that doesn't get us any further but if I don't put it down, I'll wish I had later just all the relevant names shouted out at me

trying to find a link through various children, may have to try the Harpes next would be good if we could find one of Joseph's children as a witness on one of his siblings children's marriages or vice versa
Simone x

Re Kate Harper age 8 on the 1871 with grandparents

Ann Davies m James Harper at Holy Trinity, Liverpool, 1860
she then marries Edward Thurgood at St Peter Everton in 1870.
then I think she may marry James Bottomley a farmer in 1890, West Derby Register Office/ Registrar attended, and ends up living with him in Yorkshire in 1891.

followed her on census no sign of Joseph with her in 1881 was hoping he may be with family but listed under wrong name

Simone x