Philip Carlin (Sumner ?)

[gerardsdarcy]

I am looking for records relating to the above Philip Carlin b Liverpool dob Sept 1896 . this info is by word of mouth relating to an old birth cert which was viewed and has fallen to bits. This birth cert states mothers name Annie Carlin in brackets formerly known as Annie Sumner,
The only record I can find is in the 1901 census where a Philip Carlin same birth year 1896 is shown aged 5 in the Cottage homes Fazackerly.
Does any body know where the records for the Cottage Homes are and can they be viewed.
Can anybody help in tracing any records as well.
All help greatly appreciated

[Katie]

Records for Fazackerley Cottage homes will be available at the City Library Site in November. If the volume you want to access ends at 1910 you can view the record. If the Volume for example cover the years 1900 to 1915 There will be a 100 year closure on these records so the only way you can retrieve the information is through the research officer and there will be a fee

[Barbara B]

Was there a father's name recorded on the birth certificate? I've had a look for a Carlin/Sumner maraige and can't find one. There are two or three Annie Sumners in Liverpool who are of a relevant age but no link to a Carlin. Poor little Philip stuck in a home with no apparent relatives at all!
Barbara

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Strange I can't find a birth to match the Philip Carlin in the Fazakerly Cottage Homes in 1901. He was supposedly born in Liverpool in 1896 but there's no matching birth in the GRO Index.

The nearest are these two:
Births Sep 1895: Carlin, Philip - Basford - 7b - 165.
Births Sep 1897: Carlin, Philip Cuer - Basford - 7b - 137;
but they are both still in Basford in 1901.

The only 1896 Carlin birth is this one:
CARLIN, Male (unnamed) - Chesterfield - Derbyshire - 7B - 772 - 1896 - Sep.

It would be worth double checking the dates on the birth cert and check if an address is decipherable. And I can't find a Sumner/Carlin marriage either so that may be a fiction to suit the circumstances.

Dickiesam

[gerardsdarcy]

Thanks for the responses however the cert was falling to bits and appears to have been thrown away so any info is from my sisters memory she tells me the exact birth date 5th Sept 1896 and like you I can not trace him. We will keep trying. He was known as "Annie Sumner's lad" but can not trace that, apparently he was born in Litherland or maybe registered there and maybe Linacre Lane and he did war service and had medals Italian and Burma stars and another star medal. He work for the post office as a telephone engineer and was awarded with a 45 years service medal.

[Hilary]

I think I'd be inclined to work backwards from the other end of Philip's life. Is he the Philip Carlin who died in 1965? If so do you have his death certificate? Did he marry? Is he the Philip Carlin who married in 1934? If so do you have his marriage certificate? Has it a father's name on it.

You mention medals are these First World War or Second World War? If they are First they will have his name and number on them.

Lastly if he was thought to be born in Litherland have you looked at the church registers for a baptism?

My father was a Post Office Telephone engineer and on acceptance to the PO had to produce his birth certificate as proof of age. He had a to get a copy as they only had a short certificate. This leads me to believe that Philip would have had to produce evidence of age when he joined the Post Office.

Hilary
Ed Officer

PS Where is Annie Sumner in the 1901 and 1911 census?

[Katie]

There was a Philip Carlin baptised in 1894 at Our Lady Star of the Sea in Seaforth his mother is Elizabeth Carlin. Could be a cover up to hide him being illegitimate. Might be worth checking this out in order to eliminate him.

[dickiesam]

Hilary's suggestion of working backwards is an excellent one. You already have an outline of his life as an adult.

Wondering if he had the initial J anywhere on his documents? Could he have been John Philip Carlin because there is this birth which matches the memory of your sister regarding the birth date.
Births Sep qtr 1896: Carlin, John - Liverpool - 8b - 32.
Perhaps he was given Philip later because there isn't a matching baptism in Liverpool. Although, according to the marriage that Hilary found, his middle initial was B..
Marriages Sep 1934: Carlin, Philip B to Pettigrew, Lillian C - Liverpool - 8b - 247.

Apart from where is Annie Carlin/Sumner in 1891, 1901 and 1911, the very young Philip might have been found in the Homes in 1901.. But where is he 10 years later?

Dickiesam

[Katie]

Burma Star is for the 2nd World War.

It looks as if the Italy Star is also from the second world war.

There was a Philip Carlin who served with the Royal Engineers in World War one. Have you got his marriage certificate can you post full details please.

[gerardsdarcy]

Thanks for all the above.
Sister and Brother in Law have just left to travel back to Skem, we are in Cumbria, They are going to do a trawl for documents or information from other family members and obtain certificates where they can then I will be back in touch if you don't mind.

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Looking forward to hearing of a more snippets about Philip, such as his marriage cert details, etc.

In the absence of his birth registration I'll reserve my personal theory regarding his origin and Annie Carlin/Sumner in case it needs modifying!

Dickiesam

[CaroleW]

Always interested in surname Carlin as it was my maiden name - no relation to this family though

I have had a look on the free 1911 index and the only entry for a Philip Carlin is in Basford Notts and he was b 1898

There is a Phily Carlin also in Basford b 1896

Searching just on the christian name Philip b Liverpool 1895-1898 does not produce any possible matches to that surname- same result using just surname Carlin

I also looked for a possible marriage or death for Annie between 1896-1901 but nothing. The Martha Ann Carlin marriage in 1900 is not her - she's one of mine!!

As you have his exact D o B - you could buy a copy cert from the GRO

[gerardsdarcy]

UPDATE

Finally got the birth certificate for Philip (Carlin) Sumnar (note spelling).

details ;-

BORN
5th Sept 1894
34 Granville Rd Seaforth

NAME
Philip

FATHER
William

MOTHER
Elizabeth
Sumnar
Formerly
Carlin

Fathers Occupation
Mariner
Merchant
Service


Can not find any trace of a marriage and having trouble locating a birth and location on census for (Annie) Elizabeth Carlin (Sumnar)
Have a birth 1875 Q3 West Derby Page 561 for a Annie Elizabeth Carlin she was always known as just Annie so suspect this could be her I was hoping to link her to a family thro a marriage or a census return to be sure but no luck so far.
Have located a Elizabeth Carlin (could have reverted back to maiden name by now) in the 1901 census in the Liverpool workhouse aged 27, this also could be her but no way of checking we have Philip aged 5 in the cottage homes at this time this could be the reason why.
Devine intervention or guidance please

[CaroleW]

So he was actually registered as Philip Sumnar - not Carlin - but appears to have taken that surname rather than Sumnar/Sumner in later life

Philip Sumnar December qtr 1894 West Derby 8b 497

I think Katie's post has the right one and he was illegitimate so you will not find a Carlin/Sumner marriage

There was a Philip Carlin baptised in 1894 at Our Lady Star of the Sea in Seaforth his mother is Elizabeth Carlin. Could be a cover up to hide him being illegitimate. Might be worth checking this out in order to eliminate him.

[CaroleW]

This could be Elizabeth on the 1891 census at 5 York Rd Great Crosby

Margaret Roberts 49 widow b Gt Crosby
James Roberts 12 b Gt Crosby
Ellen Eustace 65 lodger b Ireland
Elizabeth Carlin 20 lodger b Liverpool
RG12 Piece 2983 Folio 117 Page 45

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Thanks for posting the birth cert details. In the absence of a marriage for Elizabeth Carlin and William, I am of the opinion that the info on that cert, indicating that the parents were husband and wife, is a deliberate attempt to cover up the fact that they were common-law partners even if only for a short while. If William had then gone back to sea that would explain why she had reverted to Carlin in 1901 and why Philip was in a home.

Assuming that the Elizabeth in the workhouse in 1901 is her, I've a suspicion that she married sometime before 1911 and both she and Philip are listed with another surname. And to complicate matters she may have married as Annie...
This could be her, despite being a fair few miles from Liverpool. There are none in Lancs:
Marriages Mar 1907> CARLIN, Annie Elizabeth - Stoke T. - 6b - 309.
Unfortunately there are two brides listed but only one groom and his name is Fred Jones!

Dickiesam

[Tina]

Hi Dickiesam
Staffs BMD have the marriage Annie E Carlin to Fred Jones
Stoke Civil Marriage, Stoke On Trent.

Tina

[CaroleW]

If you use the formula below - Annie Elizabeth Jones married to Fred Jones and living in Stoke on Trent - was only born 1885. 1891 census shows an Annie E Carlin aged 6 living in Stoke with parents Thomas & Annie

USING THE FREE 1911 INDEX TO DETERMINE THE CORRECT HOUSEHOLD

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

Once you find a possible match - make a note of the county and district in which the person was living

Return to the index and in PERSONAL DETAILS - just put the surname of the family - nothing else

In LOCATION - Select the county and below it - type in the district

In OTHER MEMBERS OF THE HOUSEHOLD - show the full name of the person you have found on the index

Click SEARCH

You will have to buy credits to view the full entry - the above instructions will only help to possibly show others of the same name in the same household

[Katie]

There was a Philip Carlin baptised in 1894 at Our Lady Star of the Sea in Seaforth his mother is Elizabeth Carlin.

This must be his baptism you can obtain a copy from www.liverpoolhitoryprojects.co.uk for a fee of £3.00

[Tina]

Thanks Carole for searching the Stoke find.
We can give this one the flick.

Tina