Was he Dennison or Johnson ?

[Martin-46]

But her Birth certificate Cleckheaton 22 Feb 1867 names her as Elizabeth Mary

[Bertieone]

Pedantic was something our ancestors were not, that is why so much confusion surrounds research.

Further to the Lily Johnson/Thomas Thornley Holdsworth marriage, Thomas previously married Ann Jane Trippin, 1873, Liverpool, a witness to that marriage was Laurence Johnson.

Perhaps a connection to the elusive John Johnson, ships officer?

[Martin-46]

Bert, I put the Yorkshire Dennisons into my tree on Ancestry and the ran a search on Jonathan Dennison. The 1971 census came up showing the family in Headingly, wife 4 daughters 1 son, OK.
Also they showed up in the 1881 census living in West Derby: Jonathan, widower, Emily, Alice, James and Mary Elizabeth. I noticed in the 'Search Filters' box an option offering me 8 more search fields. I clicked 'show all' and ............ ! ! ! it offered me Spouse Elizabeth Mary Turner AND . . . children : Emily Edith, Lillian, Alice Maud, James Everington and Sarah Miraculously, another daughter has appeared - Lillian. However, they are all greyed out so I can't do anything with the. But I will keep fiddling and see if I can get the system to spit out more info.

[Bertieone]

Martin,

If what you have seen is from another persons tree, please check any information for Lillian scrupulously, do not accept without the data to prove exactly who she is.

[Bertieone]

The only one I could find previously is below, different mothers maiden name, I'll give it more attention.

[Bertieone]

The above is the daughter of Abednego Dennison and Deborah Wood. married 1859, Bradford Yorkshire.

[Martin-46]

Try as I might I cannot get any sense out of Ancestry. It won't allow me to access the so-called filters showing the name Lillian. However, it has occurred to me that it may be a false entry because I think my younger sister in Oregon may have introduced a false trail. I have been keeping her up to speed with much of what you have unearthed. She may have been searching for the elusive Lillian herself. I can't complain because it is her Ancestry.com account I have been using. We have been researching our family on our father's side - we are directly descended from Bishop Ridley who was burned at the stake along with Bishop's Cranmer and Latimer in Oxford in 1556 by Mary I (not personally). She is at work at present but I will try o contact her tomorrow to see if my suspicion is correct. It has happened before that if we both open the tree on different computers at the same time we can be messing around unaware of what the other is doing. Ancestry don't seem to have allowed for this. It does some strange things sometimes. Martin.

[Martin-46]

Bert, I had a look at the 1891 census record where Sarah Dennison is next door to the Flemings on Prescot Road and I can see no mention of Fleming's son. Does he show elsewhere?

[Bertieone]

Look for this family, 1881, 54 Prescot Rd, Liverpool

Jno. Fleming 48
Margt. Fleming 44
Margt. Fleming 21
James Fleming 17
John Fleming 15
Joseph Fleming 13
Ellen Fleming 11
Charles Saven 7
Maud Mackay 3

[Martin-46]

Hmmm. Trouble is, I've no means of browsing census data randomly, I can only do what Ancestry allows me when I search in relation to a particular person who is in my tree. But it looks interesting; the ages of the parents are a bit out but Ellen looks right.

[Bertieone]

If we look at the Dennison family, Jonathan Dennison and Elizabeth Mary have done everything correctly, they have registered the births of all their children and baptised each of them. They all show on the census' together at sometime or another. It doesn't seem likely if they had a daughter Lilly/Lillian she wouldn't be part of at least one of the above at a tender age.

There's no evidence she was brought in to the marriage by Elizabeth Mary Turner, adopted in or because of the ages recorded, be the daughter of one of the other children.

It seems, Sarah disappears after the birth of John Fleming and Lilly appears, my view is Lilly was Sarah's preferred name, whether it was a nickname she had or changed it for reasons we will probably never know.

I suspect the census she appeared on as Lillian came about through possible interference by the enumerator, being offered the name Lilly and correcting it (speculation)

She wouldn't be the first woman to be in a long term relationship and consider herself married when she hadn't signed the dotted line and carried on the pretense when their partner was deceased and remarrying.

I can only surmise the relationship was long enough for John Fleming to consider John Johnson his father and carry the name forward.

[MaryA]

Hmmm. Trouble is, I've no means of browsing census data randomly, I can only do what Ancestry allows me when I search in relation to a particular person who is in my tree. But it looks interesting; the ages of the parents are a bit out but Ellen looks right.

I would like to interject a couple of hints about searching here. It is far easier to choose just the database you need at that moment.

In the above case it was the 1881 census you were looking for a particular entry. ONLY in the 1881 and 1911 censuses can you search by address on Ancestry.

Start at your home page and choose Search/Census & Electoral Rolls. Then choose only the census you wish to search. When entering information remember that less is more.

I usually put "Liverpool" in the keyword box, but in this case they entered "West Derby" for the birthplaces of the children and as they were living in West Derby, using "Liverpool" is problematic. If you don't know for sure, then using "Lancashire" and checking down the list you are given is often helpful. Enter the minimum of what you know, in this case John Fleming born 1866, parents names John and Margaret. Again in this case they have been abbreviated to Jno and Margt so uncheck the exact but you can leave it checked for young John. As mentioned above you can search by an address in 1881 so put in the minimum "Prescot" as Road may have been abbreviated to Rd. and put this in the keyword box.

Hope this is helpful to you and an easy way of getting to just the information you want rather than Ancestry's choice of entries from all over the world.

[Martin-46]

Thanks Mary, I've tried your advice and got the hang of it. I'm sure I've got more to learn so I'll keep plodding on.

[Martin-46]

Thanks Bert, with a mixture of fact and conjecture I think we've probably got close to the truth about my grandfather. Something else that would fit in iss that if John Johnson was a ship's officer that might account for why he doesn't appear in the census return - he was away. Of course there could be other reasons.
To fill in a little bit of other detail, I have found that Jonathan Dennison died 26th December 1891; address 70 Myrtle Street; informant son J.E.Dennison 373 Prescot Road.
I'm still rather puzzled why neither Lillian Johnson nor son John Johnson show up in any later censuses. He was very much alive in 1918, 1930 and 1939 (according to his military record which I have in full including demob addresses). He was using his full name JFDJ and giving a correct date of birth.

[Martin-46]

I also found that Elizabeth Taylor died on the Wirral in the 1950s.
Maybe one day when (if) this Covid thing ends I might go on foot on the trail of the Flemings of Prescott Road. There were quite a lot of them. My grandfather died 48 years ago so there could well be a Fleming who remembers a mad uncle who died in Anfield.

[Bertieone]

I'm still rather puzzled why neither Lillian Johnson nor son John Johnson show up in any later censuses. He was very much alive in 1918, 1930 and 1939 (according to his military record which I have in full including demob addresses). He was using his full name JFDJ and giving a correct date of birth.

Census after 1911 have not been released and Lilly was Lilly Holdsworth and was widowed in 1909, it is by that name you would need to search in 1911.

[MaryA]

there could well be a Fleming who remembers a mad uncle who died in Anfield.

If you were interested in checking the UK Electoral Registers, Findmypast holds a copy of them, you could either wait until you could get to the library where there is free access on their computers, or perhaps you could sign up for a two week free trial, remembering to cancel before they took your money from your card details that you would need to register with them.

[Martin-46]

Hi Mary, yes but . . . . I did sign up for the 'free trial' with MyHeritage and they only let you go back 2 generations and give you very little search capability. The trial is to wet your appetite. As soon as you want to do anything serious they post a pop up saying 'you need to upgrade'. Once you've cancelled they bombard you daily with emails telling you that they've found a new relative - but pay up first before you can see it. I'm not sure but I would guess that FindMyPast is similar. I might give it a go via the library when it becomes possible. Nothing lost. I also tried the Mormon site which is free buiut also limited.

[SuffolkSandry97]

Hello, apologies for joining this conversation so late. Bertieone thoughtfully contacted me through my Ancestry membership recently about the above, which I have found extremely interesting. I wasn’t aware this group existed, and it also looks very interesting and informative, and I’m sure I shall enjoy reading and participating in the future.

So I have joined using the same User Name as I have on Ancestry for consistency. But basically I’m a mid-fifties married woman from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. I am also one of the great grand-daughters of the afore-mentioned Emily Edith Roberts, nee Dennison, the sister of the Elizabeth Mary Taylor nee Dennison, married to Walter Taylor, with whom the mysterious Lillian and John Johnson are living at 70 Myrtle Street in Liverpool in the 1901 census.

‘The reason Bertieone contacted me is that he saw my public family tree on Ancestry, named the Dennison-Everington-Wood-Roberts family tree’, which overlaps with quite a few of the characters that have cropped up in your conversation. It’s taken me quite a few days to slowly read through the details being discussed, to absorb, research and re-read them before I’ve been able to come to certain conclusions. But my main strong belief is that the mysterious Lillian Johnson would indeed seem to be the same person as my mysterious disappearing great grand-aunt Sarah Annie Dennison, first-born daughter of Jonathan Dennison and Elizabeth Mary Turner, the Yorkshire Dennisons as you have referred to them. As has been mentioned, Yorkshire Sarah Annie Dennison last appeared under this name in the 1991 census at 373 Prescot Street, Liverpool, living with my great-grandmother, her husband James Gillson Roberts and their younger brother James Everington Dennison. From various clues that Martin-46 has provided and from research and suggestions by both Bertieone and MaryA, there is lots of corroboration through my additional family history information to confirm the likelihood that Sarah Annie Dennison and Lillian Johnson are one and the same person, and that the same Sarah Annie Dennison is the mother of the John Johnson who appears in that same 1901 census. And that that John Johnson is the same person as John Fleming Dennison Johnson, grandfather of Martin-46. This would mean that Martin-46 and I are third cousins. Hello Martin!

So where to start so as to make the best sense of all the information? First of all, it’s my definite belief that the researcher to whom Martin-46’s uncle paid £45 around 40 years ago gave you the wrong information about which Sarah Dennison was the mother of his grandfather John Fleming Denison Johnson (JFDJ for short). He is definitely a Yorkshire Dennison, through where there is no connection with Ireland nor Peter Dennison and Catherine Langford and their other children. I think the researcher attributed Sarah to the wrong Dennison family, and unfortunately this has led Martin-46 on a bit of a wild goose-chase. This also means that the marriages of Sarah Dennison to Thomas Coombes and then to Thomas McDonald are irrelevant. Sorry about that, but at least it makes things a bit clearer as to what happened, even if we don’t know why.

So there were 5 children born to Jonathan Dennison and his wife Elizabeth Mary Turner, who lived (none that I know of who died in infancy). The children were Sarah Annie Dennison, born 16 June 1856 in Ella Terrace, Leeds (taken from her birth certificate), my great grandmother Emily Edith Dennison (born 1859 in Bradford), Alice Maud Dennison (born 1861 in Bradford), James Everington Dennison, (born 1864 in Bradford) and then Elizabeth Mary Dennison (also seen as Mary Eliza Dennison), (born 1867 in Bradford). Their history that I have traced back several more generations is all in Yorkshire. At some point after the death of the mother, Elizabeth Turner, in 1874, the family move to Liverpool, so that by the 1881 census the youngest four children are living with their widowed father at 22 Crosfield Road, West Derby, Liverpool. Dad Jonathan seems to regularly change his occupation with each census, and on several marriage certificates he is recorded as ‘Gentleman’. (Bertieone, I think his occupation in the 1881 census reads ‘oil merchant’ rather than ‘dye merchant’). Jonathan’s own father and several of his siblings were very involved in woollen manufacture, which may be where the family’s wealth came from. Based on their addresses, I don’t think they were particularly rich, but nor do I think they were poor. Probably somewhere in between, and still needing to work.

I have previously managed to build up a decent line of descendants for all of the Dennison siblings, except for the oldest sister Sarah, the subject of our discussion. It really bugged me as to where she disappeared after the 1891 census. As did the sudden appearance of Lillian Johnson and her son John Johnson, aged 9, in the 1901 census, living with Walter and Elizabeth Taylor. Especially as Lillian is listed as sister-in-law to Walter, which made no sense, as I couldn’t trace any Lillians through the Dennisons. I have regularly re-visited these conundrums over the years but have never managed to find any answers …… until now!

Martin-46, please don’t dwell on the various age discrepancies involved. As Bertieone and MaryA have already said, people lied about their ages often and for many reasons. For instance, Elizabeth Mary Dennison, born in 1867, was actually aged nearly 32 when she married her husband Walter Taylor on 1 January 1899. Walter was then aged 22, which they no doubt perceived as an embarrassing age difference, especially as it was the wife who was much older than the man. So they lied, even on their marriage certificate, when they claimed to be 29 (her) and 28 (him). Thereafter, at every census, the lies keep coming, though the various ages claimed are never consistent! So don’t let the age detail deceive or dissuade you Martin-46!

I too spotted early on that John Fleming (aged 60) and his family lived next door to the Dennison family, including Sarah, in the 1891 census, and was quite disappointed when I read on and realised that Bertieone had already figured out the Fleming connection! That was to have been one of my “Ta-da” moments! I agree that it is very likely that either next-door neighbour John Fleming senior, or his son John Fleming, aged 23 by 1891, and living elsewhere, is likely to be the father of Sarah’s son JFDJ. Sarah was aged 34 at that point, so it could have been either of the men. The Church of England baptism of JFDJ takes place 9 months later in 1892 in Manchester. Sarah is still using her real name at that point, but who played the part of the child’s dad, John Denison/Dennison, at the baptism? And why was it in Manchester rather than Liverpool? And why give the likely made-up John Denison the strange choice of occupations as a phrenologist? Perhaps Sarah got her brother James to stand in as Mr Denison at the baptism, to avoid the stigma of having her child baptised as illegitimate. Perhaps they had the ceremony in Manchester to again make sure no-one local to them in Liverpool was aware of what was going on, or their subterfuge. Sarah’s father had said in the 1881 census that he was a ‘writer on science’, whatever that meant, so perhaps he had studied phrenology and they chose that occupation to add credibility to the make-believe John Denison. We can only guess.

I too cannot find any subsequent marriage record anywhere of Sarah or even a Lilly/Lillian Dennison to a Mr Johnson, except the 1900 one in Burnley which has already been discounted in previous discussion. So I’m guessing that perhaps Sarah felt under pressure to hide herself safely away from the Flemings if their family had realised she was pregnant by one of them. Or perhaps it was shame or stigma of single motherhood that made her do this. Whatever, she seems to have decided to assume a new name through which she couldn’t be traced, and for some reason has chosen the name Lillian (later Lilly) Johnson. The only Dennison family association with the surname Johnson that I’m aware of comes a little later – Sarah’s sister Alice Maud Dennison marries Peter Bradshaw in 1888. They have 3 children, including a daughter, Elsie Maud Bradshaw, born in 1890. In 1919 Elsie marries Frederick Harold Johnson. Perhaps the Dennison family knew the Johnson family already some years before, and Sarah thought that Johnson was a good innocuous name to use. By the time of the next census in 1901, Sarah/Lillian is living with her sister and brother-in-law and her now 9-year old son John Johnson (JFDJ), claiming to be the widow of the untraceable Mr Johnson, and claiming to be 6 years younger than her real age and having been born in York.

Sarah then meets and marries Thomas Thornely Holdsworth (in some records spelled Houldsworth) in 1906 in Liverpool. She (now as Lilly Johnson, rather than Lillian Johnson) claims to be aged 44 on the marriage certificate when she is in fact 50, and Thomas Holdsworth claims to be 66 when in fact he is 74! I wonder if they even told each other the truth about their real ages!! The address given for them both at the time of their marriage is in Myrtle Street, Liverpool, which is likely to be 70 Myrtle Street, where Sarah’s father Jonathan Dennison died in 1891, and where Sarah as Lillian Johnson is recorded as living with her sister and brother-in-law in the 1901 census. One of the witnesses to the marriage was Sarah/Lilly’s sister Elizabeth M Taylor, so we can be sure this marriage relates to the Lilly Johnson being discussed.

New husband Thomas then dies 3 years later. His probate record says that he left his £786 effects to his son Thomas Reginald Holdsworth, so it is not clear if Lilly had pre-deceased him or was still alive at that point. I haven’t yet found any conclusive records after 1906 for Lilly Holdsworth so can’t be sure when she died. I couldn’t find her with that name on the 1911 census. There are several possible death records for Lily or Lilian Holdsworth that could be her, bearing in mind we can’t rely on her age being accurate nor know where she might have died, other than the likely Lancashire, Cheshire or Yorkshire areas. They are Lily who died in Chester in 1921 aged 62, Lily who died in Bradford in 1937 aged 59, Lily who died in Rotherham in 1940 aged 73, Lily who died in Rotherham in 1942 aged 75, Lily who died in Leeds in 1947 aged 82, Lilian who died in Surrey North in 1948 aged 82, and Lilian who died in Wallasey in 1949 aged 78. I haven’t looked any later than that, as Lily/Sarah would have been approaching 100 by then, and is unlikely to have still been alive. She might even have remarried, as there are many marriage records between 1909 and 1950 for women with the names of Lily, Lilly, Lilian or Lillian Holdsworth or Houldsworth in the likely areas of the north of England.

While Sarah/Lillian gets married in 1906, her only son John Johnson (JFDJ) seems to carry on living with his aunt Elizabeth and uncle Walter Taylor. By the 1911 census he is aged 19 and living with them at 24 Kimberley Road, Liscard (now Wallasey, north of Birkenhead). He is listed as an analytical chemist and works for a Tallow Merchant. Tallow is the hard white fat from animals like cows, often use to make candles and soap. Martin-46 has given us quite a lot of detail about John’s life after that date, including his university education, war service, marriage to his grandmother in 1916 and family. I see that he died in Liverpool in the first quarter of 1973 when, based on his correct date of birth, he would have been 81. Martin-46 has also told us that JFDJ suddenly left his family in the 1930s and was never heard of by them again. He was also known to suffer from schizophrenia.

At this point I can begin to add in a bit of my own extra information. First of all, on JFDJ’s 1916 marriage certificate, his address is given as Bloomfield, South Villas, Liscard (now Wallasey). I have in my possession the 1921 conveyance document of a piece of land that Walter and Elizabeth Taylor had purchased in Blakeley Road, Raby Mere, 10 miles away. They built their own home on that piece of land. On the conveyance their current address is also listed as Bloomfield, South Villas, Sandrock Road, Wallasey. So it seems that in 1916, when he married, JFDJ was still living with his aunt Elizabeth and uncle Walter at their home in South Villas. And another interesting thing here is that Walter and Elizabeth Taylor named the house that they then built on that piece of land in Blakeley Road, Raby Mere ……. Londesboro (Ta da)! It is still called that today, as I visited it in 2008 as part of my family history research. So Martin-46’s original mention on Page 1 of a family myth linking JFDJ’s name Denison with the Earls of Londesborough, who also had the family name Denison, might hold some water! However, as I am happy that we already know the true link between JFDJ and the name Denison/Dennison, I suspect that the Taylors probably called their new-build home Londesboro first, and then the Earl link family theory came later as a way of accounting for JFDJ’s use of the name Denison. But I have no idea why they called their house Londesboro, so my hunch could be wrong.

I also have a copy of the will and probate of Walter Taylor following his death as a widower in 1957. The will was written on 30 August 1956 and in it, among other bequests, he leaves a £250 legacy to ‘John FD Johnson, wife’s nephew’. The address for JFDJ at that date was given as Ward 6 Horton Hospital, Epsom, Surrey, which links in with the schizophrenic information. It was a psychiatric hospital with various uses over the years, as detailed in this history: https://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/horton.html I wonder how many years of his life after his disappearance from his family might have been spent in psychiatric institutions.

I have now added Lillian Johnson and JFDJ to my afore-mentioned public Ancestry family tree, which anyone reading this should be able to locate on Ancestry if they wish to. I have kept Lillian’s profile separate from that of Sarah Annie Dennison for now, and have her and her son floating separately from the rest of the family while I await any new theories or new information in response to this post. Their profiles, which are based on their 1901 census entries and subsequent information, should be locatable through the search facility on that particular tree. If all is as I think it is, I will eventually merge the profiles of Sarah Dennison with that of Lillian Johnson, using her correct date of birth.

Martin-46, I would highly recommend DNA testing to you. I had mine tested several years ago through Ancestry and it has reaped dividends aplenty. Your resulting DNA matches with other members can confirm branches of your existing tree and can also highlight where you might have made a mistake in your research, been misled by others, or been unaware of an infidelity somewhere along the line. In the last 2 years I have discovered 2 cases where the DNA disproved the paper trail of close ancestors and led me to different men. Thankfully my Dennison line was confirmed rather than discredited. If you too tested through Ancestry DNA, if my theories above are correct and we are third cousins, that is close enough for you to be likely to show up as such with either me or one of my other two siblings who have tested. Maybe all 3 of us. You would also be likely to find Fleming links, and if you didn’t, then that theory might have to be re-thought. If there are Fleming links, you might also be able to figure out which man was the father of JFDJ, John senior or John junior, based on the strength of your DNA match to other Fleming descendants.

I look forward to reading any subsequent posts in what to me has been a fascinating and enlightening discussion!

[Martin-46]

Hi SS97, I have just read your post and am amazed. The revelation that Walter and Mary Taylor lived at Bloomfields is a clincher to my mind. Their nephew John Johnson was clearly my grandfather. I concur almost 100% with all your reasoning - I have worked through all the same logic myself. I have a few more scraps of info I can let you know later. But also to tell you I have taken a long shot. My grandfather more than once declared his father to be a Ship's Officer. Now Burnley is not far from Preston where there were busy docks in the late 19th century so I reasoned : could the marriage between Sarah Ann Dennison and John William Johnson in Burnley in 1900 be another key to unlocking the mystery? Is this how she acquired the surname Johnson? So I have ordered a copy of the certificate. It would astounding to find that Sarah gave her father as Jonathan Dennison and JWJ his father's occupation as ship's officer. A long shot indeed but will either prove or disprove something.
I will post more later. Martin.