Was he Dennison or Johnson ?

[Bertieone]

I probably asked the question badly, what I wanted to know is why did you acquire that particular birth certificate for Sarah, daughter of Peter and Catherine, was it from family knowledge passed down. There doesn't appear to be enough information on John Fleming's birth certificate to do so.

I agree the 2 Dennison families seem worlds apart and yet the Yorkshire family appear to have had the financial clout to give John Fleming his education.

[Martin-46]

Bert, bearing in mind that various members of my family have been trying to find out about my grandfather's past for over 60 years, my uncle (his son) hired a 'professional'' genealogist about 40 years ago and it was he who discovered John Fleming Denison's birth certificate and that of his mother Sarah. I don't know how, but it cost my uncle £45 - wow.

[Martin-46]

But you have done better than all the rest put together !

[Martin-46]

I myself spent many hours in Somerset House searching for info about him. The irony is (as it now turns out) that I was at the time a student at Liverpool university and he was living in the same city ! ! !

[Bertieone]

Thanks Martin,

I would have asked the same question to the Genealogist. The problem I have, I can't find any link taking John Fleming back to Peter & Catherine Dennison.

I might be missing something and would encourage anyone who may have found a pointer to declare it.

It appears John Fleming's birth certificate provides insufficient evidence that would lead us back to Peter & Catherine Dennison via their daughter Sarah.

There doesn't appear to be any census evidence either, the baptism is inconclusive as to which Sarah Dennison it is and I suspect his service records if any would hold no clues, similar to his marriage lines.

At this stage I'm leaning towards the Yorkshire Dennison's and John Fleming started life with them.

I'd like to add, if I can prove myself wrong it would give me great pleasure, we keep going.

[MaryA]

I took it for granted that the birth of Sarah had been verified. You know what they say about each fact should have three pieces of evidence to support it. If we go back what is actually confirmed from family knowledge, ie who knew John Fleming and who knew (long shot) Sarah and are they able to confirm that her name was Coombes/McDonald.

Just first thoughts to begin to confirm as 40 years ago your genealogist may not have had as many resources as there are available now, even St Catherine's House the indexes would have had to be browsed quarter by quarter manually, it could be the only name he came across.

[Bertieone]

You couldn't make this up, the image is the 1891 census, 373 Prescot Rd, Liverpool.

The Yorkshire Sarah Dennison living with sister Emily. After a quick look, neighbour John Fleming also had a son, John, a bit younger than Sarah.

Who's the culprit?

[Martin-46]

Bert, you are quite right, there is nothing to connect the Sarah Dennison of Upper Brook Street who had a son named John Fleming with the Peter Dennison family of Whitley Street. As regards the Prescot Road 1891 census data, it is quite compelling. The ages of the Emily and Sarah are about right. How do you know they are the Yorkshire ones?
Could it be that this Sarah conceived a child with either the neighbour or his son (likely out of wedlock) and later was living in Upper Brook Street when she gave birth? Could explain why father's name and occupation were left blank on the birth certificate and why she gave the name Fleming. Only question is why she should show up at two different addresses in the same census - unless the census data recording was spread over a period of time and not done all on one day as it is nowadays.

[MaryA]

Oh ho ho, opened up a wasps nest but I could take bets on it being the right result. Have you checked up on earlier censuses to see if there was a son Fleming of the same name, approximately the right age?

It has been known for somebody to be enumerated twice, perhaps she was in the house when one form was completed and went home/visiting etc. at night when another was completed, unknown that she was already noted. It does happen more often with children who perhaps spend time with grandparents, but there's nothing to say a similar mistake couldn't be made.

[Bertieone]

I've checked various census and the children registrations and baptisms, definitely the Yorkshire Sarah, sisters marriage below, brother James, witness.



Where is Sarah on another 1891 census?

[Bertieone]

Yorkshire family baptisms,

[Martin-46]

Sorry, my mistake, she wasn't on the 1891 census at Upper Brook Street. That was her address when she gave birth.

[Bertieone]

I don't suppose we will ever know why she was at Upper Hill St, perhaps her and the father of the child moved in together, the property was recorded as apartments, 1894 directory. However, Mrs Truswell may have been experienced
in child birth and Sarah went to be in her safe hands. If she gave birth there only, the address would still show on the birth certificate.

Interesting the Yorkshire family were in Liverpool for the 1881 census, Father, Jonathan Dennison is recorded as being a Writer of Science, I wonder if Phrenology falls under that umbrella.

[Martin-46]

I wonder if we could find out if Sarah Dennison later married a John Johnson - and even better that he was a Ship's Officer. That would more or less complete the picture.
I had a gut feeling all along that the name Fleming was the key to unlocking all this.

[Martin-46]

If Yorkshire Sarah Dennison's son John Fleming is the same John Johnson, Analytical Chemist, designated 'nephew' aged 19 living with Walter and Mary Taylor in Liscard in 1911, a puzzle remains as to who was Lillian Johnson aged 40 living with Walter Taylor, wife Elizabeth Mary and nephew John Johnson at 70 Myrtle Street in 1901 ? ?
Who was she, why is she referred to as sister-in-law, and is this how John Johnson got his eventual surname?

[Bertieone]

There was only one marriage, John Johnson/Sarah Dennison, the Burnley marriage I posted earlier to hold on file, they can be dismissed, he was a Coal Miner and their ages a far to much out to be considered.

[Bertieone]

I've tried every variation and permutation to find out who Lillian was and how she could be classed as sister in law to Walter, no success as yet.

Yorkshire Sarah after the birth of her son goes off the radar, the other girls can be found.

Is it possible Sarah has become Lillian, something to ponder?

[MaryA]

I had a similar situation - Elizabeth became Lilian and I confirmed it by her Will. Have you checked if this Lilian had a Will - it's cheap enough at £1.50 to get a copy simply to rule in or out.

[Bertieone]

[Martin-46]

Actually Elizabeth Mary Dennison appears in several censuses as Mary Eliza Dennison.