JOHN WILLIAM DAVIES AND NORAH PRENDERGAST

[Sue H]

Hi Simone

Yes I did see this one (female Prendergast), got it saved in my "shoebox".....didnt order this because didnt think it would be of any use.......would parent names be on it........I pressumed maybe an orphan or illegitimate. I also have in the shoebox a death record for a Norah Davies in 1960........once again left there until I could prove she had married

The only other name I have really tried is Honora........the one I found, and was followed up on here, suddenly morphed into Annie, however I tried looking for a death with Honora, and I picked up the Honora who's christening we found.......it appears she died not long after. The connection with the name Honora comes from the only clue in my baby book.........under the name of great great grandparent some one has written John Fredrich and Honora Davies........now I know that infact Nans mothers maiden name was Prendergast, I also know that although her mother was list as Sara it was wrong this was infact her grandmother....I worked on the assumption that the surname should have been Prendergast not Davies. I know that Jessie May was brought up by her grandmother, and the way nan used to talk about her mother always calling her Sara and not Norah.....that she and her sister at some stage ended up living with her instead of her real mother. I got a real shock when those birth certificates turned up I can tell you!! They all seemed to live in and around each other.

I know with your help that John was not in the army (discharged not long after joining up when 17)
I know he was a painter and a journeyman (someone who was qualified in the trade to employ other people)
I also know he dabble in the music halls........nan loved telling that tale of her only memories of him singing and dancing.

But where were the two of them hiding in 1901!!!

I was quite excited when I found Jessie May Templeton...tiller girl no less.......I have even compared that photo with the one I have and think is Norah, but I traced her in digs then living with her sister and her death........no where near liverpool in 1901/1911!!

I have tried looking for a John Fredrich and Honora Davies or Prendergast on their own to start a tree......nothing or nothing that includes a daughter of the right age, or anything close!!

The trouble is being relatively new to all of this (although I have improved over last 12 months)......I am still missing things that I should really have seen........like the letter dating 1921!!

I also feel a bit mean, this is taking up so much of everyones time...but I have tried everything I can (or think I know) and all the clues given ..........the womans driving me mad!!

[dickiesam]

I know he was a painter and a journeyman (someone who was qualified in the trade to employ other people)

Hi Sue,
A slight correction....
A journeyman was not a 'master' tradesman. A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. To become a master, a journeyman has to submit a master work piece to a trade guild for evaluation and be admitted to the guild as a master. Only a master could employ and train apprentices.

The word journeyman comes from the French word journée, which means a period of one day. The title refers to the journeyman's right to charge a fee for each day's work. Journeymen would normally be employed by a master craftsman but could not employ others. It is possible that Norah thought, or had been told, that a journeyman worked away from home [as in the 1911]. Journey as in travel, a common misconception of the word.

I have a 'journeyman' cooper who told both his wives he travelled about for work to explain his alternate absences from 'home'.

[simone]

Hi Simone

Yes I did see this one (female Prendergast), got it saved in my "shoebox".....didnt order this because didnt think it would be of any use.......would parent names be on it........I pressumed maybe an orphan or illegitimate. I also have in the shoebox a death record for a Norah Davies in 1960........once again left there until I could prove she had married

(

Hi

I reckon the 'female Prendergast' is a child who has not yet been named. For example one of my ancestors Emily Freeman is registered as 'female Freeman' probably because her parents had not decided on a name for her when she was registered. So as she has a surname, her parents should be on the certificate.. wish we could see it without having to pay for it, the address may be a clue on the other hand it may be no help at all

The other reg I found just says 'female' not even a surname, so i reckon that one would be a child that has been abandoned/ found somewhere

They had jessie in Dec 1901 so wonder where they are

I was also thinking Prendergast may be a name she has picked up from a step parent, but as yet haven't found a mother of a Norah who has married a Prendergast after the birth of Norah.

[dickiesam]

Re:

PRENDERGAST, Female (unnamed)
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1880; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 139.

Children do not have to be forenamed before they can be registered. Hence the relatively frequent births registered as 'Un-named male' or Un-named female' with a given surname. The heading for Column 2 on the cert says 'Name, if any'. If the parents were married both will be named on the cert. I have always thought Column 10 on the cert was for when the parent(s) returned to the Registrar to add the forename.

I wonder if there is a Prendergast baptism close to the Sept/Dec qtrs of 1880?

[simone]

Catholic baptisms has Margareta and a Margarita Anna, born and baptised in Aug 1880. Margaret has a birth reg, but can't see Margaret Ann.

There's also a Rose Ann but she has a birth reg.

so wonder if female Prendergast if Margaret Ann

Simone x

[simone]

there's this one, but think we looked at her in the past? wasn't she the one who turned into Annie?


Honora Prendergast
Birth Date: 2 Oct 1878
Baptism Date:
9 Oct 1878
Parish:Holy Cross
Father's Name:
Joannis Prendergast
Mother's Name:
Honora Prendergast

i can't see her on census?

[Sue H]

Hi Folk

My misuderstanding of Journyman

The Southport Reg Office are very good in the past when I have order anything, if it didnt fit all the criteria i asked for I never got the certificate.......not sure ordering this one would give me anything

Yes the Honora, that morphed into Annie was the one I found what I think is the death also,........it was a death with the same parents names very soon after baptism.


I did think of that brilliant talk at last meeting where that lady explained about birth certificates and wondered........but not having anything to work on about her family has made me hesitate

sue

[simone]

Hi Sue

What are all the details on your nan's birth certificate. I've been looking at addresses on FMP, to see is any names ring a bell in 1901 No one we know at Exe Street addresses, no one we know at the Thames Street addresses. Also tried 16 Holden Street, no luck.

Where was nan born? are there any other addresses on any of your other certs?

Simone x

[simone]

just tried 26 Freeman St from Jane Helen's baptism in 1903, but no number 26 listed

[Sue H]

Morning Simone

Jessie Mary 13.12.1901.... 39 Exe Street, John down as journeyman

Norah, 23 April 1904........born at 13 Holden Street..........but living at 33 Lovel Street West Derby.........john down as house painter journeyman

Sara 7th April 1908 born at and lived at 33 Eden Street.........john journeyman

I can send you copy if you what

[simone]

1901
13 Holden St, Joseph(1873) and Ellen (1874) Dutton and their family with brother in law George Veacock and his family
can't find this address in next census


1901
16 Holden Street
Jospehine Bullen and her family
not on next census

1901
39 Exe Street
Thomas Waring b Preston 1837
William Shone b Liverpool 1874 and his family
can't see this street 10 years later

1901
33 Eden Street
William Henry Martin b 1858 Manchester and his family
wouldn't you know it, 10 years later the street is there but not this number

Lovel Street can't be found on either census

they been making it all up as they go along

don't suppose you recognise any of these names Sue?

Simone x

[Sue H]

Hi Simone

Just gone in to an old map...........there is a Lovat street, Edge Hill Liverpool. There was a little Lovet street.......and a cross the road, big Lovet Street (internet search)

[Sue H]

Simone

No none of the names mean anything

What ever this pair are hiding, they are doing it very well.

But why would they then suddenly appear in all their glory in 1911!!

Sue

[simone]

Sorry Sue, I was looking for Lovel Street... even so I still can't get Lovet Street, but got Lovat Street
In 1901, no 33 has Benjamin Johnson and his family.
10 years later this house has disappeared
However ther are 2 no 32's, with the Higgins family and the Reynold family.

Why do the houses keep disappearing

[Sue H]

Hi Simone

Sorry birth certificate not easy to read

What do I do now..........try building a tree of the people in the houses in hopes that someone will come to light that fits Norah.

How do you find the address only on a census........never figured out how to do it

There is a big lesson to be learnt here...........ask questions before its to late!!

Not sure what to do

Looking at it another way 1911 is the last census available..........is there anyway I can track the years after 1911.......voters roles on each house ......anything...just maybe a way of seeing if Norah did leave the girls with Sara West Jones!!

[simone]

Hi Sue

Find My Past has a facility for searching on the address, Ancestry doesn't.

Not sure the electoral rolls will help, especially later on.. after the horse has bolted so to speak.. People moved about so much, always seems to besomeone different in the address you search

You know Honora b 1878 to John Prendergast and Honora... where is the death for her?. Sorry I can't remember what we discovered exactly last time this was looked at...


Honora Prendergast
Birth Date: 2 Oct 1878
Baptism Date:9 Oct 1878
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name:Joannis Prendergast
Mother's Name: Honora Prendergast nee Joyce
godmother: Honoria McNab
godfather: George Gallagher

It seems John and Honora had these children

Patritius Prendergast
Birth Date: 17 Aug 1868
Baptism Date: 23 Aug 1868
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name: Loamis Prendergast
Mother's Name: Honorae Prendergast
godfather: William Joyce
Godmother: Maria Walsh

Joannes Prendergast
Birth Date: 2 Jan 1870
Baptism Date: 9 Jan 1870
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name: Joannis Prendergast
Mother's Name: Annae Prendergast (Joyce)

Michael Prendergast
Birth Date: 9 Dec 1871
Baptism Date: 17 Dec 1871
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name: Joannis Prendergast
Mother's Name: Annae Prendergast (Joyce)
godmother: Honora Joyce


Thomas Prendergast
Birth Date: 9 Dec 1882
Baptism Date: 17 Dec 1882
Parish: Holy Cross
Father's Name: Joannes Prendergast
Mother's Name: Annae Joyce
god father Patrick Gallagher
godmother Bridget McNab

1881
RG11; Piece: 3609; Folio: 23; Page: 39
46 Adlington Street
John Prendergast 36 labourer, b Co Mayo
Annie Prendergast 30 b Liverpool
John Prendergast 11
Mary Prendergast 5
Annie Prendergast 2 mths

at the same address is Patrick Gallagher 32 and his wife Annie 26 and his mother in law Honora Joyce 50 b Co Mayo, and sister in law Catherine Joyce age 13.
Sarah Prendergast 32 sister in law, basket woman b Liverpool

1891-- I reckon this is same family although age for John out and John jnr now b Ireland
RG12; Piece: 2970; Folio: 101; Page: 65
148 Olivia Street
John Prendergast 59 labourer, b Ireland
John Prendergast 21b Irelannd
Mary Prendergast 14
Ann Prendergast 12
Thomas Prendergast 9

struggling to find Michael and Patrick...

1871 census
RG10; Piece: 3770; Folio: 104; Page: 16;
61 Leace Street
John Prendergast 28 labourer b Ireland
Anne Prendergast 20 b Liverpool
John Prendergast 1 b Liverpool
Jane Prendergast 50 mother B iRELAND
Sarah Joyce 24 boarder b Liverpool, Chip Seller
Mary Baines 55 widow, boarder b Ireland
no sign of Patrick in 1871


now surely they would have known the difference between a 2 month old child and a 2/3 year old child in 1881. So could the first Honora have died and they then named another child for her in 1881? Could this be another Honora/Ann who could be your Nora..

[dickiesam]

Still keeping a weather eye on the Norah Prendergast ongoing saga...
Re:

Looking at it another way 1911 is the last census available..........is there anyway I can track the years after 1911.......voters roles on each house ......anything...just maybe a way of seeing if Norah did leave the girls with Sara West Jones!!

Unfortunately only men will show up on the Electoral Rolls up to 1918 in the UK. The Representation of the People Act was passed in 1918 giving the vote to women over the age of 30 who met minimum property qualifications. This meant those who were either a member or married to a member of the Local Government Register. The Register was the list of property owners who were currently paying property taxes. Ten years later the Representation of the People Act 1928 extended the voting franchise to all women over the age of 21.

Only the Rolls after 1928 would be of use in tracking the women in the saga. Apologies for the negativeness!

[simone]

Can't help thinking its coincidental that the entry in the bible says gt gt grandparents are John and Honora Davies. The Davies suranme could be a genuine mistake

[Sue H]

Hi Simone

heres a copy of what i had to work with. This is what made me think grandad was adopted.......I thought he would be the problem. But I found the family who had wondered where he had gone for 30 + years, so I know all the information I have on him is spot on!!

I think who ever filled this in was asking the questions........and presumed it was Davies........maybe nan didnt know her mothers maiden name



Thanks dickiesam not your not being negative........its just the way this puzzle is

[simone]

I wonder when your nan filled this is. Like you say some may be guesswork.
It may not have occurred to her to think about maiden names.

Re:

1881
RG11; Piece: 3609; Folio: 23; Page: 39
46 Adlington Street
John Prendergast 36 labourer, b Co Mayo
Annie Prendergast 30 b Liverpool
John Prendergast 11
Mary Prendergast 5
Annie Prendergast 2 mths

I can't see daughter Ann in 1901, so did she meet jwd and they were not approved of by her family, they were Catholic and he wasn't. Maybe they disappeared for a bit, she fell pregnant with Jessie May and so she turned to mum to look after the baby. Maybe her family had no more to do with her.

Need to see what happened to the other children to john and honora. Found a couple possible marriages for John, one to ann mcnab, mcnab being the name of a godparent. Haven't found him on census though. In fact all the children tricky to pin down on census.

I saw on a sites somewhere that honora was used for ann, hannah, jane, Nora/h, Joanna.

Closest registered I can see for the 2mth old ann in 1881, is for a hannah, Jun q.

Will be out for some of today, but will have a look through the Catholic records again when I'm watching tele tonight