Hit a brick wall with KELLY..anyone know where to go next?

[Sarah..]

His address was 3 Birchfield Road, Walton, Liverpool, this house is still in the family as it has been passed down but strangely no belongings/documents of his have been kept apart from the marriage cert.

We know he had a brother but don't know his name, we have recently been told that this brother has a daughter still living in the area but frustratingly no contact details for her!

[colette]

This will be John Free's marriage

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1927

FREE John W MILLS Elizabeth Walton, St. Mary Liverpool 2012WD/24/33

I know it doesnt help as John was proberbly a mate of William's and Annie Breeze may have been a mate of Elizabeth Scotton's

This might be her marriage

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1918

BREEZE Annie CHEESMAN Albert West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_WD/343/10

[colette]

Hi Sarah in 1938 Mrs Elizabeth Scotton at 3 Birchfield Rd Walton is this Elizabeths mothers house ????? and they lived with her.

[Sarah..]

In 1938 Elizabeth was still living in the house, she lived there until she died in 1973. She owned/rented the house but it may have been passed down to her from her mother.

It would be a great help to find either of the marriage witnesses, now that I have Annie Breeze's married name I may be able to track her or her children down in a local phone book to see if they can help me out, so thanks for that!

Any clues on how to rule out any of these census possibilities? I've got 3 in England and 3 in Ireland now

[colette]

Hi why is Elizabeth down as Scotton and not Kelly ??? in 1938..

Can't help with Annie Breeze's kids as none are showing up surname Cheesman mother Breeze..i checked Commonwealth War web site incase Albert Cheesman had been killed in WW1 as they married 1918,but nothing.

John W Free & wife Elizabeth Mills had

John W in 1928
Elizabeth D in 1931
Henry in 1934

1962 Directory Albert Cheesman address 8 Thirlmere Ave Lpool 21

Only a handful of Free's and no John W or his sons Henry & John W or wife Elizabeth listed..

Regarding census its a hard one as you dont have any clues to go on you need William James's brothers name.. does anyone in the family recall anything.theres deffo an Irish Connection if you have been told this..but its knowing if all Williams family came over or just him and maybe his brother..

Kelly is a really hard name isnt it..

[colette]

Hi just realised the date 1923 when Will & Elizabeth married. so can't be the right Annie Breeze as she married in 1918 so would be called Cheesman...

Another

Annie Molyneux - Thomas Breeze marriage West Derby 1922. shes the only Annie marrying a Breeze right time so to speak.

one daughter Norah Breeze born 1923

[Sarah..]

Thanks, I will definitely try and get hold of some Breeze/Free relatives if I can.
Annoyingly nobody knows his brothers name, we know his brothers daughters name and the general area where she lives, but no actual address or phone number for her, we know one person who recognises her by sight so it's just a case of waiting for them to bump into each other!
The only other detail I'm aware of about his brother is that he was a window cleaner, don't know anything can be made of that.
I was also told the other day that Kelly is the second most popular name in Ireland, only Murphy is more common, it's so difficult!

And I have no idea at all why Elizabeth is listed as Scotton in 1938, her death cert. is recorded as Kelly.

[colette]

Jessssssssssss how old is the daughter if William was born c 1891 and he was the so called last child his brother had to be older..so say his brother married in 1912 ish the daughter would be very old if still living are you sure its not a Grandaughter LoL

It could be possible if he married late in life like in his 40s or a second marriage to a younger woman..anyway you know more than me haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Just gone through Kelly in 1911 & 1938 no Window Cleaners in 1911 one in 1938 Nicolas Kelly Window Cleaner address 8 Beatty St Lpool 13.. its not gonna help realy as he may have done other jobs before being a Window Cleaner ..

[colette]

Hi i was just thinking you say you know where Great Grandad is buried..have you checked who else is in his grave ???

[Sarah..]

He's in Kirkdale cemetery, there's no headstone, is there any other way I can find out if there is anyone else in there? Strangely his wife is buried in the same cemetery but right on the other side but this could be because he was catholic and she was C of E

[colette]

Hi it depends if hes in a public grave if so there will be strangers in it with him so it wont help..Ifhes in a private grave there maybe other family in with him..

If you know the grave ref no you can ask if someone can help on here..the records are at Lpool Record office..if its private his brother might be in the same grave its worth a try.

Whats the name of the brothers daughter ??? you can PM me as shes still living

[Sarah..]

I didn't know there were records listed by grave number at Liverpool record office, when I went there to find out where he was buried, the records were listed in date order, is there a record listed by the location as well? Can't remember if it said it was a public or private grave but I will go to the record office again in the next few weeks to see!

I'll PM you with the daughters name, thanks

[colette]

Hi you have to know date died and then you find the burial if you know the cemetery it will give plot number and section theres a way of finding who else is in the same plot..if its a public grave then who ever died around the same time gets put into that grave up to 6 people...

Someone on the board will know how it works

[MaryA]

Colette is describing accurately the way the microfiches are for the Catholic cemeteries, Ford, Yew Tree and Ainsdale - from the date find the person, take note of the references (location) and then from the other set of microfiches the location will give you who else is in the grave.

Unfortunately not all cemeteries have this cross referenced, each will be individual depending upon whether they have been indexed in this way either at the time, perhaps at the end of each year, or as part of a transcription project at a much more recent date. The indexes at the Liverpool RO will be the place to check to see for different cemeteries.

I would have expected each burial to have been marked whether it was in a private or public grave, and if public then again as Col says, probably the next burials will be in the same plot.

[Sarah..]

Went to the record office yesterday, found John and William (his sons) baptisms but no new info, just listed his occupation.
Also had another look at the marriage cert and his fathers occupation is listed as deceased.

[colette]

Morning Sarah

Untill we get this daughter of Will's brother Irene.. i think we are stuck, if we just knew her married name..I was thinking that Will's brother might have been the last child born so alot younger thats why he has a daughter still living, whos in her 70s, just think she might know lots of info, its a pity his surname wasn't something a bit more rare isn't it.

What about Williams wifes side the Scotton's any old rellies still alive who may know something ??

All those Irene births in 1930's i sent you SHE has to be one of those BUT its frustrating knowing which one.

Did you find out if that was Elizabeth's mum at Birchfield as she was Scotton.

Also on the 1911 census were is Elizabeth and what year was she born ??

[Sarah..]

Hi,
There are lots of Scottons still about and all still in contact with the family, but none of that generation, the ones around now say they were never told anything about him.
Yes it is likely to be her Mum at Birchfield as she was called Elizabeth too,I think the house was handed down to her from her parents as I've come across records of her brothers and sisters also living there when they were young. I could find out pretty much anything about her family really as she has living relatives, just really strange how no one knows anything about her husband.

[colette]

Hi

Its proberbly with William dying youngish they dont know nothing about him and in those days people never talked about things like we do now.

Its like me i can't find my Great Granny on the 1911 nor the 1891.. i see her mother in 1891 and youngest brother.. but not her and her elder brother and dad.. then in 1901 3 kids are with their dad and no mother to be found..but hes down as married..so i recon they had split up.. by the end of 1901 the dad is shacked up with another woman and by 1911 has two daughters. to her.. no marriage to be found... god knows where the mother has gone and where my great gran is.

She told my mum her Grandaughter she went to the Isle Of Man and loved it there.. but never said when.. she also said she was put in the Cottage Homes Fazakerley but never said what age,, so a bit of a disfunctional family i recon..

The answers will come eventualy

Irene is your only hope really, its a pity there isnt marriages on ancestry like they have births 1916 onwards etc.. we could check all the Irene Kelly marriages in the 1950s & 60s then check electoral rolls for surnames in the Stuart Rd area of Walton..

Without her surname were stuckkkkkkkkkk

[Sarah..]

Emailed everyone on the members directory who lists Kelly as an interest, hopefully I'll be lucky and one of them will be able to help!

[Sarah..]

Hi everyone,
Just an update on how I'm getting on
Finally got in touch with Irene!
She told me absolutely loads of info, including that lots of the family including William were baptised at my local church!! Small small world!
Going to the church next week to look at their records but there's still a few confusing things, I'll come back and explain them when I've seen the church records