Thorn's Temperence Hotel - Tithebarn St.

[Graeme]

Just in case you haven't found them on Ancestry you'll find the 18 Goree Piazzas entry in Kelly's Directory 1938, 46 Tithebarn Street in Gore's Directory 1911 and 60/62 Tithebarn Street entries in Gore's Directory 1911 and Kelly's Directory 1938. Latest entry in Ancestry Phone Books I can find under Herbert Thorn is 1950 it has Herbert Thorn 60 Tithebarn Street L2. Mrs Gertrude Thorn is listed at 3 St Anthony's Road L23 Great Crosby in 1950. Latest entry under Thorn at 60 Tithebarn Street I can find is in 1960. Not listed in 1964.

Blue

I just had another poke around Ancestry and I did indeed find the Phone Books and various other lists - can't explain why that category (Schools, Directories, Church Listings) was a blind spot for me until now, but I'm grateful for the nudge in the right direction.

The 1938 Kelly's directory has Thorn, Herb't at 60 and 62 Tithebarn St., and also at 30 Whitechapel which represents another new address for him. Herbert died on New Year's Day, 1950 and his residence at the time was the one on St. Anthony's Rd. His widow Gertrude - formerly Stackhouse, nee Wilding - is the same Gertrude mentioned in Hilary's prior post referenced by DickieSam and MaryA. She was his second wife; his first wife Jane passed away in 1938.

Having found an entry for Thorn's in at least 1960 is good to know, because it means the kitchen sink memory I mentioned earlier is now more plausible (at least to me) as Thorn's seems to have still been in business for a number of years after I was born.

I would still love to discover any old Thorn's business, registration or tax records, find out which years the business(es) opened and closed, and when 60 Tithebarn St was demolished, however I fear this sort of information - if it exists - is likely beyond the scope of this forum. Having said that, I'm very pleased and thankful for the information I have learned in the past few days from everyone here...

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[Blue70]

Photo 3 definitely says Cadbury's:-




Blue

[Graeme]

Photo 3 definitely says Cadbury's:-

Blue

Thanks Blue. This is a different picture; in fact, I haven't seen this view before. The photo I have of the corner view is taken from farther back and the full length of the Tithebarn Street side of the building can be seen, as can the Temperance Hotel sign; the front doors of the Café appear to be open and nothing can be seen next door along Cunliffe. The Capstan advert with the familiar logo is in the same place as the Cadburys ad here. The telephone booth opposite Thorn's leads me to believe that the picture you posted is more recent than the one I mentioned.

Graeme
(Member# 8712)

[retiringtype]

Some local context from a former Crosby resident: St Anthony's Road is in a very good upmarket residential area. Number 3 would have been handy for Blundellsands & Crosby station and the train into Liverpool Exchange (in Tithebarn Street), and also for the Blundellsands Hotel which was a popular meeting place. At the other end of St Anthony's Road is Waterloo rugby club.

[Blue70]

If you look to the right edge of "photo 3" you can just see a bit of the Art Deco building that was then called Hornby House and is now called New Century Apartments. The 1923 photo or photos may have been taken just prior to the demolition of the block to make way for Hornby House.


Blue

[Graeme]

If you look to the right edge of "photo 3" you can just see a bit of the Art Deco building that was then called Hornby House and is now called New Century Apartments. The 1923 photo or photos may have been taken just prior to the demolition of the block to make way for Hornby House.

Blue

I've just been comparing the two photos - the one you posted and the one I have (I'm not signed up with any image sharing site as yet so I can't show it here). In yours, the sign above the door reads 'Dining and Tea Rooms' whereas in mine it reads 'Thorn's Temperance Hotel' which confirms that the hotel part of the business (temperance or otherwise) was closed down and the cafe survived.

Graeme
(Member No. 8712)

[retiringtype]

Here's the sheep photo for those who haven't seen it

[Blue70]

This 1923 photo was probably taken the same day as the other one it shows the old buildings between Cunliffe Street and Vernon Street from the Vernon Street side of the block.




Blue

[Graeme]

Well, I started out hoping to learn some things about Herbert Thorn's businesses such as the years they began and ended operation, tax records, and so on. but wound up learning much more about the actual building on Tithebarn Street and its surroundings, which for me was just as rewarding. Thanks to several experienced society members I learned where Thorn's Catering location was (and not for want of looking off and on myself I might add), some mentions in newspaper archives as well as some residential addresses through the years.

Thank you all very much for your efforts and contributions: to Karen for starting things off by finding an old legal notice that nobody in the family seemed to know about, to retiringtype for giving me a quick Ancestry lesson, and to Blue70 and retiringtype for posting the images, and of course not forgetting MaryA for so kindly ordering, scanning and posting the picture from the archives.

I haven't given up on finding at least some of the business information, but that may have to wait for my next U.K. pilgrimage. Meanwhile, I've ordered a copy of Herbert's Will and I'm patiently waiting to find out who and what is in it...

Cheers all!

Graeme
(Member No. 8712)

[Mike OHare]

Hi,

My name Mike O'Hare Born Liverpool ( Age 75 )
Mother Agnes Thorn ( Murrell)
Business 164 Scotland Road Liverpool
Dining rooms
Grandmother Elizabeth Thorn ( Murrell)
Grandfather? Walter Lawrence Thorn / Murrell
Bert referred to as " Uncle Bert ". For some reason we never were introduced to him.
Notice of Name change in London Gazette
Copies of Family's Birth and Death certificates and Grandmother's will

I
HERBERT AMBROSE THORN, heretofore
, known and called by the name of Herbert Ambrose
Murrell, of Number 60, Tithebarn-street,

One Photo of Mothers Marriage with " Uncle Bert" giving her away

1912 CEnsus seems to show a Thorn living opposite " The Shop" as it was called.

Would like to know what your info is as regards the name change.
Have 'Googled ' you to zero effect. ( assuming Thorn without an e ) Coincidentally I now live in Thorn Road

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The original poster, Graeme is a member of our Society and a current member of the forum, so he should receive notification that you have posted on this message and pop along to reply. If there are any specific queries we can try to help you with in addition, please ask.

[Graeme]

Hello Mike:

Sorry for the late response - family, work and other miscellaneous life events have been stealing time away from my hobbies it seems and I haven't been here nearly as much as I would have liked lately. I'll be retiring in a few years time - until then I'll have to muddle through...

Now to respond to the items in your post (I do hope you are still watching the forum): First of all, I'm not entirely sure if, or how we might be connected as some of the information you have offered does not agree with what I have discovered about my own family history - for example, so far I haven't come across anyone in my family named O'Hare. Of course I might be the one with incorrect information...

Herbert Thorn (formerly Murrell) was my Great-Grandfather; I have copies of Herbert's birth, death, both of his marriage certificates, his Will and assorted family memorabilia. My Grandmother's birth certificate lists him as her father, so I am reasonably certain of the line from myself to Herbert. I believe his parents were Hannah Agnes Thorn (probably not her maiden name - read on) and George Murrell, but so far I have not actively researched them other than coming across a couple of census records that seem to be a match for the family - one of which shows them residing at 224 Scotland Rd. (Herbert is not on that census - presumably he was living on his own by then). Before that they lived in London.

I have a copy of the actual 1913 Deed Poll that changed the name of Herbert Ambrose Murrell to Herbert Ambrose Thorn and was quoted in the London Gazette several weeks later (fortunately he paid a solicitor to register it). Presumably as head of household in those days that document was sufficient to also change the surname of his wife and children to Thorn even though they are not named. Unfortunately the Deed Poll does not provide the reason why he decided to take this action in his 40's and with a family. The most accepted explanation was that he was told or found out that his parents were not who he initially thought they were - his mother apparently having married twice (there is a step-son named George Thorn in a later census when she is married to Mr. Murrell and has children of that marriage - including Herbert, so depending who his biological parents were, this George Thorn could have been his half-brother or his brother). If this is correct, Hannah Agnes somebody was married to a Mr. Thorn and later to George Murrell (I may need to spend a day or two in the National Archives to even begin sorting this out).

One of Herbert's children was born Herbert Walter Murrell and would have become a Thorn when his father changed the family name. He was always known as 'Bertie' and I am given to understand he was a chef.

I have no record of a Walter Lawrence Thorn in my family, but Herbert Ambrose had a brother named Walter Clarence who in turn named a son after himself. It may be a long reach, but 'Clarence' and 'Lawrence' (or 'Laurence' if spelled that way) can sound similar if not enunciated clearly - the former somewhat resembling the latter with a 'C' in front. There does not seem to be any evidence to suggest that Walter Sr. ever changed his surname from Murrell. Herbert did not have a sister.

Well, I've taken up quite enough space for one post so I'll leave it at that for now, as I said, I hope you are still watching this thread and can offer some additional details either here in the open forum or via PM, but if not, I hope this is of interest to others researching the Thorns and Murrells -- there are some other related posts in this forum including photos of some of Herbert's business premises on Tithebarn St. (he had several business locations in Liverpool) and some other family connections... Looking forward to continuing the discussion, but please forgive me if I don't respond for right away.

Cheers!

Graeme

[Graeme]

Oh look, the photos I mentioned are earlier in this thread, but there are other conversations here about Herbert Ambrose Murrell/Thorn and Tithebarn St; for anyone interested they are easy enough to find...

Graeme

[Mike OHare]

I am 100% certain that this is the same family. The photo of your Ambrose and my mothers Uncle Bert ( at her wedding ) are the same. Many other details fit.

My mother's birth Cert. shows her as Agnes Murrell ( Thorn ). She married Peter O'Hare, my father.

I have passed copies of the thread to my elder brother, Peter O'Hare, who confirms my contention.

My second name is Law(u)rence, My Uncles had they lived would be George and Laurence.

I have been to Liverpool Central Library ( 20 years ago ) and am certain of my facts. I have too many documents to post on here, are you permitted to forward me your email or postal address?

I had hoped you would have a reason for the name change, we have no ideas other than WWI was about to start, and there may have been rumours of conscription?

Keep in touch

Mike

PS what is your surname.

[MaryA]

I think it's wonderful that two family members have made a connection.

Certainly pass personal contact details between you both, if you both agree, but I suggest that you do it by pm, not a good idea to post on a public board.

I hope that once you have sorted out all the knots in your researches you will update this post with a successful story.

[Graeme]

I am 100% certain that this is the same family. The photo of your Ambrose and my mothers Uncle Bert ( at her wedding ) are the same. Many other details fit.
My mother's birth Cert. shows her as Agnes Murrell ( Thorn ). She married Peter O'Hare, my father.
I have passed copies of the thread to my elder brother, Peter O'Hare, who confirms my contention.
My second name is Law(u)rence, My Uncles had they lived would be George and Laurence.
I have been to Liverpool Central Library ( 20 years ago ) and am certain of my facts. I have too many documents to post on here, are you permitted to forward me your email or postal address?
I had hoped you would have a reason for the name change, we have no ideas other than WWI was about to start, and there may have been rumours of conscription?

Keep in touch

Mike

PS what is your surname.

Yes, since learning of the name change I have been wondering why that rather drastic step was taken at that stage of his life. Herbert had been living under his new surname for a couple of years before making it legal, but perhaps that was just a prerequisite. I am sure my grandmother (Herbert's daughter) knew much more than she was willing to say - which wasn't much. Even my father had no idea about it until he was arranging to get a Birth Certificate and passport for his mum and the details began to emerge.

I am interested to compare notes and learn more. I am just as certain as you are as far back as Herbert Murrell/Thorn, but I can't be as certain of his ancestors as I have not yet taken up the task of doing the research to verify or disprove what little information I have about them. I now have the motivation to do that sooner rather than later.

One thing I have trouble reconciling at the moment is not having come across anyone named O'Hare in my family history - in particular Agnes Murrell's marriage to your father Peter. It just seems odd to me that it would not have come up at some point. At first blush that makes me wonder is this the same Agnes? That said, I remain open minded and willing to be persuaded otherwise. I think we need to swap some more details and we can do that initially via PM and then decide what to make public.

I'll be away from the forum for a few days, but I'll be back soon; whether I'm right or wrong I'm fascinated to see where this all leads.

[Blue70]

I think this is the marriage index for the marriage mentioned the surname at the marriage was Thorn:-

Names: Peter O'Hare and Agnes Thorn
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1938
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 430


Blue

[Graeme]

Thank You Blue...

Unfortunately, rather than demonstrating a common family link between my ancestors and Mr. O'Hare's, this information would seem to support the opposite (Mike, I have sent you a rather lengthy email with my reasoning; please feel free to post any or all of it here).

Briefly, for the benefit of the Forum, the Agnes Thorn in my family was born Hannah Agnes Thorn around 1851 and she married George Ambrose Murrell sometime around 1870. According the 1911 census for 164 Scotland Road, the Agnes Thorn in Mr. O'Hare's family would have been born around 1909; she was listed as being 2 years of age at the time.

I have also found that my ancestor Herbert Thorn (the one who changed his name from Murrell) almost certainly cannot be the "Uncle Bert" from the O'Hare family because the necessary relationships to make it so simply do not appear to exist.

I was hoping that there would be a common ancestor and a family connection could be made; it disappoints me to say that it now seems unlikely, although as ever I would be happy to be proven wrong...

Graeme

[luxor]

I'm not on top of all this thread, but these newspaper stories might be interesting:

On the 18th October 1897, the Edinburgh Evening News reported that Herbert Murrell, Lawrence Murrell and William Thwaites, arrested in London for burglaries in Liverpool, were remanded by Liverpool magistrates. The Murrell brothers said they were only getting in the things for the other man. Thwaites didn't reply. The trial was reported in the London Evening Standard and the Liverpool Mercury on 2nd December 1897. Herbert, 25, was described as a cook and Lawrence, 22, as a baker. They were convicted of burglary of silverware in Liverpool that was disposed of in London. Lawrence and his father had previously been tried for receiving stolen goods. A suspended 10 month sentence was triggered for Lawrence, followed by 6 months for the latest offence. Herbert was sentenced to 12 months.

On 13th February 1911, the Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser reported the case of six men and one woman charged with various acts of breaking and receiving. It said that Lawrence Murrell, 36, a baker who had cocoa rooms in the City under the name of 'Walter Thorne' was sentenced to three years.

[Graeme]

Fascinating stuff Luxor - thanks! This particular story doesn't apply to my own family - my ancestor named Herbert Murrell was born in 1872 so although the age would be about right, he didn't have a brother named Lawrence - however, perhaps someone else will recognize the details.

So many families with similar names, dates and other circumstances - one small example of why genealogy is as frustrating as it is rewarding sometimes, and I've only been at it for a few years part-time. Some of the helpful and knowledgeable regulars on here have obviously been doing this for decades and are very passionate about it - not to mention selfless; they deserve our gratitude every day! Thanks all!

Graeme