William Driver about 1853-1857 Manchester/Liverpool

[simone]

Hi Lorraine

The certificates I posted are in the Liverpool records on Ancestry There are West Yorkshire ones on there .

I had a look at Driver families in Yorkshire.... seems to me that they all were bobbing back and forth between Yorkshire and Lancashire, a right mixture of birth places for the children

wish I could find that Thomas, the whitesmith one, for definite

Simone x

[simone]

dear simone

I recently did some online lookups of addresses in liverpool and the sorry loooking picture of 92 soho street (now a virtually derelict building advertising skip hire) was the final abode of my William Driver he was an elderely boarder living there in the 1911 census. Not sure why he wasnt living with either of his sons at that time.

Lorraine x

there's a coincidence.. in 1861 my own 4x g grandmother was landlady at White Lion Public House 93 Soho Street... there doesn't seem to be a 92 listed, goes from 91 on to 93 so maybe 92 was part of the pub.. wonder if it was still there in 1911

[simone]

Hi Lorraine

Have you had a look into this family at all?

1861 census 37 Prospect Street, West Derby
RG 9; Piece: 2727; Folio: 85; Page: 19

William Potter 52 b ireland
Eliza Potter 50 b ireland
Copfield Potter 24 b ireland
Eliza Potter 20 b Liverpool
William Potter 17 b Liverpool
Sarah Potter 14 b Liverpool
Thomas Potter 10 B Liverpool
Benjamin Potter 8 b Liverpool
William Driver 8 b Birkenhead, nephew
Sarah Driver 3 b Birkenhead grandaughter
Jeremiah Driver 6 b Birkenhead nephew


I think the Potter's were in Manchester in 1851, but birthplace's are Manchester for the children in 1851 and William Potter born Lancashire not Ireland. but I think it's the same family because Cawfield is there and a couple of the other children. Maybe this is where the confusion with birthplace comes in, if he was with a family from Manchester, he was born in Cheshire, but lived in Liverpool! nobody seems to know where they were born Also wondered if Henry b c 1877, may have taken a the name Jeremiah from an Uncle, one of my ancestors did that


1851 census
HO107; Piece: 2225; Folio: 704; Page: 4
Oldham Street, Mancahester
William Potter 42 b Lancashire
Eliza Potter 42 b Ireland
Cawfield Potter 18 b Manchester
James Potter 16 b Manchester
Mary Potter 11 b Manchester
Eliza Potter 9 b Manchester
William Potter 6 b Manchester
Mary I Potter 4 b Manchester
Thomas Potter 1 b Manchester

[dickiesam]

By Simone:

nobody seems to know where they were born

Great sleuthing Simone. I think it supports my earlier surmise that this family may have been originally of a somewhat itinerant nature. Thomas, the travelling tinsmith...... They seek him here, they seek him there, maybe he and his family avoided the census man? There's a rather derogatory term 'Hedgies', used to describe people who lived 'on the road' and over-nighted in the hedges, avoiding villages etc, and other populated areas unless they were working, plying their trade.

[lollyrs]

oh another thing simone

How can I see the will of Jeremiah driver who died in 1940 ?


Thanks

Lorraine

[simone]

I think you have to apply to the Probate Service...


Thomas husband of Malinda



Jeremiah who died 1940



another Jermiah who died 1886, but lived just by the one above

[MaryA]

Information about Wills here http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... lls#p78155 It is £6 to apply for a Will, the address to write to is on that link, it is now Leeds, although throughout the post it may mention "York" which is where it used to be at the time.

I would definitely consider a blacksmith to be similar to a whitesmith, not necessarily interchangeable but perhaps they do whichever job was available to them at the time.

[simone]

I decided to try and find out about Sarah Jane Driver who married James Tempest in 1880 and states her dad is Thomas. struggled to find her but it did occur to me that she may be Sarah Driver who was with the Potter family age 3 in 1861 born Birkenhead

couldn't find a good match for Sarah Jane/ Sarah Driver on census with dad Thomas as she states at marriage.


but...rewind back to the Potter family in my earlier post, with the 3 Driver children.

found this family again in 1871 bad image and so badly transcribed but she isn't just Sarah this time, she is Sarah Jane Potter's are transcribed as Porter and Driver children as Oliver, although it is really hard to tell

RG10; Piece: 3821; Folio: 22; Page: 36

living in Everton but can't read the street name, could be Gleave, but Everton is where William is in 1881 after marriage to Mary..... also Sarah Jane marries from Ambrose Street, Everton in 1880...

Eliza Porter 60 b Ireland, widow, Provision Dealer
James Porter 38 b Manchester, Labourer
Thomas Porter 21 b Manchester.. can't read his occ
Benjamin P Porter 18 b Manchester can't read is occ
William Oliver 18 b Manchester grandson 'smith'
Jeremiah Oliver 16 b Birkenhead grandson 'horsekeeper'
Sarah Jane Oliver 14 grandaughter b Birkenhead
Michael O Donoughie 64 --- age on this one looks like 44.. don't thinkhe belongs with them, reckon he is with family next door

The occupations struck me William a smith like his dad maybe, and Benjamin has the link to horses... what do you think?

Simone x

[simone]

Lancs BMD
marriage 1849
DRIVER Thomas
POTTER Susannah
Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
Manchester
CATH/70/173

wouldn't it be good if he was a smith of some sort
I think it's at least worth a look

[lollyrs]

Hi Simone

I tried linking the potter family to mine as in my earlier searches for the birth certificate I paid for the one of thomas to potter. I have the birth certificate of William 14 oct 1851 edward street Manchester to Thomas driver - Striker and Margaret driver formerley potter.

When i added in all of the census information it started to look promising until I found conflicting information in later census and family makeup. to aid me in this i created a new tree on ancestry driver potter and have added all of the census information you have listed above. If it turns out to be right I can copy the trees across, I dont want however link to a "hopeful " connection if it isnt the right one. I am revisiting this now as it is interesting that you have made the same link. If however he was born in 1851 he was 2 years out in the 1881 census info and 6 years out on the 1901 census but oddly right ages in 1911 census and date of death.


The soho street picture can be found on google if you enter 96-98 (sorry i got the number wrong last time)soho street in and then use the street view you will see the skip hire place.

I have now collated all the william drivers in the 1871 census with a couple of intersting links, off to do the 1861 census now and see what that finds. Will be back in touch shortly.

Thanks again

oh and I am on ancestry and can find references to marriage certificates but didnt know you could actually display the certificate itself?

Cheers

Lorraine

[simone]

Hi Lorraine

Sorry confused me there.. you say you have birth to Thomas and Margaret.. but marriage is Thomas and Susannah..

so there may be another birth out there to Thomas and Susannah

[simone]

there are possible births in Wirral, which would cover Birkenhead

1856 June q
DRIVER Sarah Jane Wirral 8a 463

Mar q 1857
Driver Sarah Wirral 8a 426

mar q 1854
Driver Jeremiah Wirral 8a 392

[simone]

What does it say on the marriage you have of Thomas Driver to Susannah Potter

Simone x

[simone]

There's some confusion here with the Potter/Driver marriage isn't there....

Lancs Bmd has her as Susannah Potter...

but Free BMD has these names on page 552

Barlow Eliza Manchester 20 552
Driver Thomas Manchester 20 552
Gratrix John Manchester 20 552
Hampson James Hope Manchester 20 552
PRITCHARD William Manchester 20 552
PURSLOW Susanna Manchester 20 552
Salmon Charlotte Jane Manchester 20 552

but there is a lady missing here


Lancs BMD has

PURSLOW Susannah
PRITCHARD William
Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
Manchester
CATH/70/174


however igi has the marriage

Thomas Driver to Margaret Potter
31 May 1849
Marriage Place:
Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England

so has the transfer to Lancs BMD gone wrong and she has been recorded as Susannah instead of Margaret

Happily.. i think in 1841 the aforemantioned Potter family have a daughter Margaret
HO107; Piece: 576; Book: 12
Richmond Street, manchester.. all born in county apart from Elizabeth born Ireland
William Potter 30 labourer
Elizabeth Potter 30
Margaret Potter 12
Scofield Potter 8
James Potter 6
Mary Potter 2

so we need to find a Thomas and Margaret Driver in 1851 ..... have they moved over to Birkenhead where the children we have found were born.
If they had William, Jeremiah and Sarah Jane, they must be around somewhere..

[MaryA]

Can't get over just how much you have found Simone, excellent!

Soho Street - or S'ho Street as my dad used to pronounce it with the emphasis on the O, used to be a very busy area just around the corner from Great Homer Street, yes sadly it has degenerated over recent years but it was a thriving area up to at least the 1950's and maybe later.

[colette]

Arrrrrrrrr you beat me to Margaret Potter been working on her for an hour and still cannot find her..thought it was odd i couldnt find a Susannah...

Thomas & Margaret baptised William Driver 30th May 1852 Manchester Cath..Ellen Driver 31st March 1850 & Jeremiah 11th June 1854 all Man Catherdral.

find it odd that on the 1861 it says Will & Jeremiah are Nephews..and Sarah is a Grandaughter..could it be that the Margaret Potter on the 1841 was old Williams sister hes 30 shes 12.. otherwise why say one is a Grandaughter and the others are Nephews...


xx

[lollyrs]

wow bombarded with information now and i think it needs lots of checking by me to tie up all loose ends.

I too wondered about the granddaughter / nephew status but when you look at the 1871 census they are all listed as grandchildren. So live with the potters for many years, something must have happened to their parents, or they were looked after by grandparents whilst their parents were "on the road" ?

I have a birth certificate for william driver to Thomas Driver and margaret driver nee potter. I cant find the marriage cert though (this would at least tell me the occupation ) so that I can rule it in or rule it out. I have been using ancestry.com and cant find Thomas marriage at all in 1949 on there - where else would I look ? I will be quite keen to send off for the certificate today and let you all know what i have found.

Much of the information on this thread has already been recorded by myself in my tree but without the wedding certificate or williams birth certificate I couldnt really be sure of the right lineage.

A few years ago a couple of people on ancestry copied lots of my tree info to their "families" without verifying data and as such strands of my tree are now linked to incorrect trees, i just didnt want to do the same thing.

Thanks again for everyones help and comments its given me at least some belief that i might have been on the right track with the potters connection and the link to the 1871 census info with them being listed as Oliver instead of driver will obviously help me verify more data.

Thanks again

Lorraine

[lollyrs]

update on potter drivers

1841 census Richmond street manchester
william potter 30 labourer
Elizabeth 30
Margaret 12
Scofield 8
james 6
Mary 2

1851 census 350 Oldham Road manchester st barnabus
william potter 42 labourer
Elizabeth 42
Margaret 12 - no longer at home she would be 22 at this time possibly in service or married?
cawfield 18 name changed or transcribed Cawfield/Scofield - odd name
james 16
Mary 12
Eliza 9
william 6
Mary I 4
Thomas 1

If margaret had married in 1849? then she would have been living as margaret driver with or without Thomas but I cant find her on census for 1851

1861 census
william potter 52 labourer
Elizabeth 50
Margaret 22 - no longer at home she would be 22 at this time possibly in service ?
Copfield 18 name changed againor transcribed Cawfield/Scofield - odd name any ideas what the actual name might be ?
james 16 - no longer at home in 1861
Mary 12 - no longer at home in 1861
Eliza 20
william 17
Mary I 4 not on 1861 census would have been 14 ?
Thomas 10
plus
William Driver 8 nephew
sarah driver 3 g daughter
jeremiah driver 6 nephew
(I think the Drivers were all grandchildren)

1871 census pleave street/Gleave street everton
Eliza 60
James 38
Thomas 21
Benjamin 18
William Oliver/Driver 18 smith gson
Jeremiah Oliver/Driver 16 horse keeper gson
Sarah Jane Oliver/driver 14 gdau

1881
william Driver now married and living at 2 willmott street everton
Jeremiah driver living with james potter as his nephew toxteth Liverpool occupation coachman

no trace of rest of the Potters or sarah jane Driver who could well have been married by this time.

I guess the marriage certificate for thomas to margaret Potter is my next find, plus also to look for deaths of Thomas and margaret Driver between 1857 and 1861 ?

Do you think I am on the right trail ?

Thanks

Lorraine

[simone]

There's some confusion here with the Potter/Driver marriage isn't there....

Lancs Bmd has her as Susannah Potter...

but Free BMD has these names on page 552

Barlow Eliza Manchester 20 552
Driver Thomas Manchester 20 552
Gratrix John Manchester 20 552
Hampson James Hope Manchester 20 552
PRITCHARD William Manchester 20 552
PURSLOW Susanna Manchester 20 552
Salmon Charlotte Jane Manchester 20 552

but there is a lady missing here


Lancs BMD has

PURSLOW Susannah
PRITCHARD William
Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
Manchester
CATH/70/174


however igi has the marriage

Thomas Driver to Margaret Potter
31 May 1849
Marriage Place:
Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England

so has the transfer to Lancs BMD gone wrong and she has been recorded as Susannah instead of Margaret

..

I reckon this is the marraige in 1849, but something gone wrong with transcription onto Lancs BMD

There is one lady's name missing from those on page 552 on FreeBMD, more men than women listed... and I think it will be Margaret Potter...

I think you may be able to send a query to Lancs BMD to ask if it should read Margaret Potter not Susannah..
as Susannah Purslow married William Pritchard


A look up request may be good... perhaps on the Manchester FHS site to see te details on the marriage..

[simone]

Arrrrrrrrr you beat me to Margaret Potter been working on her for an hour and still cannot find her..thought it was odd i couldnt find a Susannah...

Thomas & Margaret baptised William Driver 30th May 1852 Manchester Cath..Ellen Driver 31st March 1850 & Jeremiah 11th June 1854 all Man Catherdral.


xx

nice one Col good to see you , hope you are well