Ellison/Roberts - A family mystery ?

[MaryA]

Looking forward to hearing what comes back.

[VicMar1]

SUCCESS at last ! Took a good long time but after following your advice DS and using your suggestions, I received the B/C for George today and it is full of little surprises that at one time not so long ago would have been very useful to know but has since been discovered 'the hard way'?
First off, the named Father IS indeed Horatio 'Coghill' Roberts ! and the second discovery would have been that the Mothers column says "Ann Roberts,late Ellison,formerly Riley" (Oy Vey ?), it took ages to determine that when we discovered Letitias baptism ? Still no Martha though ??
Georges birth was 2nd October 1910 and I think the entered address says '14 Howley street'?
The best news of all though is that there IS a second given name for George, ....Wise !!!..Roberts
I havent started looking yet but hope that makes it easier to find out his fate.
At least I now know for certain that they had only been at 2 Town View for a short time before the 1911 census
Thanks all

[Hilary]

Sadly George appears to have died in 1914. His death is recorded in Liverpool burials on Ancestry. George Wise Roberts was buried on 11 Feb 1914 aged 4 years address given as 2 Town View Everton Terrace so I think it could be your George.

[VicMar1]

You beat me to it Hilary. I was going to start looking this evening,however I had always thought that he was deceased. The address definitely clinches it for certain.The saddest thing is that he apparently died just a few days ahead of my Mothers birthday on the 14th when she would have been 2 Y.O and he would have been just over 4 Y.O himself ? I assume that will be just the index reference you found Hilary ? I will need to find a method of discovering grave sites soon ! (Heaven forbid that he also is in Walton Park !)

[MaryA]

And just guess where Vic is visiting tomorrow? Yep, Walton Parochial Cemetery!! Reference on the end of the row is Cg? 2830 28.V costing 4/-.

Looking at some other data where grave numbers have been identified, it would seem that 28.V is the grave reference.... doesn't help as to where it is in the cemetery though. There is a clue there in that V - check your list.

[VicMar1]

You are right Mary,P'te Dutton is quite close to that reference and if that is the area 'V' then from memories of my last visit it should be quite accessible to us ?

[MaryA]

Fingers crossed

[dickiesam]

SUCCESS at last ! Took a good long time but after following your advice DS and using your suggestions, I received the B/C for George today and it is full of little surprises that at one time not so long ago would have been very useful to know but has since been discovered 'the hard way'?

OY vey indeed! But sad to find the young lad had died so young.

[VicMar1]

Very much so DS,but it is a sign of those times unfortunately,and one of the reasons we now have a welfare state, for better or for worse ?
Taking stock of what I have so far discovered of those members of family contained in the census's of 1901&1911 I have discovered that by end 1918 there was only Horatio (Roberts) and Ellen Letitia (Ellison/later BROWN) and my Mother,Valentine (Roberts) definitely still surviving ? There is now only Ann(ie) Franci/es Ellison(Roberts?) to determine the fate of. She was most definitely born an Ellison but declared as a Roberts in 1911 plus there have been many instances of the male spelling of her given name. I looked for her at an earlier date and vaguely remember finding a likely candidate based on age etc as being deceased in the early 1920's. Dismissed her then and never made note but just cannot find her now. I would assume that if she did survive long enough she may have married and changed her name yet again,so this is going to be a struggle methinks ? .

Add edit: MaryA and myself visited Walton Parochial Cemetery yesterday and made some remarkable discoveries that we both feel just might give us a much clearer picture of how the site may have been laid out. We are both translating our finds into working documents and in the fullness of time our hope is that most people will be able to get a little closer to where their ancestors might lie. The City Farm now has volunteers that are weeding the worst areas to give clearer access to the military graves and eventually to less visited areas. I will update the Walton Cemetery posting as well.

[MaryA]

For anybody wondering what they are likely to find if going to search for their ancestor's grave - this is Vic close to where George's last resting place is, found only by counting across from one of the CWGC graves nearby. We think there may be a few babies/children in the same grave.

In that wooded area is where it is believed some of the bodies were reburied after being exhumed from the prison graveyard were exhumed when the car park was being extended.

I was stood in another area of the cemetery earlier and there was not a soul in the section I was in, and a locked gate on either end. Spotted a headstone that interested me so took a photograph and then noticed a stone that had fallen in front of it that appeared to be for the wife of the man on the first stone, and some others too. So I turned round to take a photograph of that one too and something pulled the back of my coat .......

[dickiesam]

For the crew....
Birth: ELLISON, Annie Frances
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Year of registration: 1905; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 164

A possible?
Annie F Ellison married David Miller
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1928; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 682

[MaryA]

Difficult to check that marriage unless we have an idea where they were living and whether it might have been in an RC church "West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended"

[VicMar1]

Certainly one to be investigated further though,thanks DS
Mary,only one thing to say, baaaah gum ! thats a scary story

[MaryA]

Mary,only one thing to say, baaaah gum ! thats a scary story

Thing is most people aren't getting the clues.

[VicMar1]

DS
Now I am wondering whether I can use the same criteria obtaining that marriage certificate ?
For instance ONLY if the brides father is Robert Elgin Ellison(Deceased),would it work do you think ???
Only the Brides name,the year and district given with the condition of the brides father being Robert E ?

[dickiesam]

DS
Now I am wondering whether I can use the same criteria obtaining that marriage certificate ?
For instance ONLY if the brides father is Robert Elgin Ellison(Deceased),would it work do you think ???
Only the Brides name,the year and district given with the condition of the brides father being Robert E ?

If you have Annie's birth cert confirming who her father was there's a good chance it would work. The word 'Deceased' is irrelevant in an application because the question "Is your father alive or deceased" may not have been asked.

[VicMar1]

Family Search has the marriage at St Mary Kirkdale
21 October 1917 he is 23 she is 21. His father James Brown her father Robert Ellison.

Captured here :
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 0d0416.jpg
Looking backwards to her Sisters wedding.
When Hilary made this discovery regarding ELLEN LETITIA I was at the microfiche next day and found the entry as above.
I pay particular note to there being no mention of Roberts middle name,'Elgin' and I only mentioned the (deceased) in passing as you can see that, whether asked or not, both parties stated this fact to the registrar.

I am getting the distinct feeling that the liaison between Martha and Horatio was not well tolerated by the Ellison children?.
First,there was the 1911 census with William being insistent of his status in face of the other(s) being renamed as Roberts's, also Letitia seems to have stayed in Kirkdale (the area where George was born) and so was not present in 1911 at Town View, as she was in Stanley Hospital which I believe was a part of the workhouse then?.

If this Annie F marrying David Miller in 1928 is correct, then she would be the last Ellison surviving from the 1911 census household data? And she would probably also resent Horatio who had divested himself of all the kids in 1918 when she (Annie F) would have been about 15 y.o?. He then went on to legitimately marry in Dec 1921.

One thought about the marriage declaration DS, didn't one need parental consent back in those days in order to get married ? Without a father I thought it might have had to be declared ?
It will not be of benefit to mention it in the certificate request for sure !
I'm just curious on that matter because when I searched through the magistrates court documents for that period I noticed lots of cases where parents had raised objection to some liaisons, and there were a lot of them ?
I assume they were trying to stop young sons and benefactors from taking up with the 'riff-raff' of young girls released from being 'in service' post WW1 ?
The times had really changed dramatically for everyone by then.

I will try and get the certificate by the suggested method because it is going to be the only way of gathering any further post 1911 information (assuming it works,and its the right person of course)

[dickiesam]

RE:

One thought about the marriage declaration DS, didn't one need parental consent back in those days in order to get married ? Without a father I thought it might have had to be declared ?

As far as I am aware parental or guardian consent was only required if one or both of the 'intended' were considered by law to be minors. Only the father's name [if known] and his occupation was required. That column was sometimes filled with a fictitious name if a person didn't know their father's name. I have a 1922 cert where the entry is Elizabeth Fry, adoptive mother.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-h ... marriage-/

[VicMar1]

Time for a small update.
I now have the marriage cert for Annie Frances MILLER (nee Ellison) dated 27th March 1928 and containing the following. Father = Robert Ellison (Deceased)*. Witness = Ellen L. BROWN (Letitia !)

Good find DS, that accounts for just about all of the people listed in the 1911 census for Town View and also addresses the mystery of the one who wasn't ?.

I now have the address for both the Bride & Groom at the time of marriage so will begin looking at electoral rolls and fist look and see if any evidence of Children come along during their tenure at the address given.

* Didn't use the "deceased" remark in the search request but it turned out he was declared as such by the Bride anyway.
In fact the Fathers details are exactly the same as for Ellen L. a full 10 years earlier but unlike Ellen L. Annie was wed at a Registry Office. Would that be Brougham Terrace I wonder ?

[dickiesam]

Thanks for the update and news of success. Glad to have been of help.