Silvy or Silvey

[sper531695]

Hi everyone,

I was pleased to see the name Silvey cropping up in our family tree as I thought it was so unusual that it would be easy to find people - wrong again!

Can anyone help me with a date of birth for Mary Ellen Silvey or Silvy born either in Liverpool about 1822 or Walton about 1824 (according to the 1851 and 1861 censuses). I cannot find a 1841 census record for the Silveys.

I have a record of her marriage from St Nicholas's records. She married Henry Johnson on 15 Feb 1847 and her father is named as John Silvy, Gentleman, of Great Crosshall St. I'm not convinced of the 'gentleman' bit as Mary (Ellen) appends her mark rather than signing the register. I don't have a date or place of birth yet for John but hopefully have the record to allow me to obtain his death certificate and work backwards.

Really grateful for any help

Best wishes

Sandra

[MaryA]

The details from the marriage certificate are:

St Nicholas Church, 15 February, 1847
Henry Johnson Full Bachelor Carter Henry Edward Street
Father Henry Johnson Labourer
Mary Ellen Silvy Full Spinster Gt Crosshall Street
Father John Silvy Gentleman
Both made their mark as did the witnesses
Edward Johnson and Elizabeth Jones

If anybody would like to see if they can make anything different from the writing of the name, here is the image.

[dickiesam]

Thanks for the image MaryA. I can't see a dot over the 'i' in Silvy, whereas other 'i's on the image are dotted. So, could it be SELVY or even SELBY?

Be an idea to check for the baptisms of the 3 children up to 1861 to see if there is a difference from other hand-writing.
JOHNSON, Cathrin - bn abt 1854; JOHNSON, Ellen - bn abt 1857; and JOHNSON, Mary - bn abt 1859.

[MaryA]

It's usually only the RC baptisms that give the mother's maiden name, however, there is no sign of them in either religion.

[MaryA]

What is your opinion as to whether the Church of St Nicholas was written by the same hand as if so, then I don't believe it is an S at all at the beginning of the surname, it's nothing like the S in St.

[dickiesam]

What is your opinion as to whether the Church of St Nicholas was written by the same hand as if so, then I don't believe it is an S at all at the beginning of the surname, it's nothing like the S in St.

I don't think it is the 'same hand', but now you mention it, what about the S in 'Spinster'?

[sper531695]

Thank you both.

Yes - that is the marriage record I found. The Johnsons, who are much easier to track, do seem to be linked to St Nicks.

I also have the birth certificate for their daughter Elizabeth which shows Mary Ellen as 'formerly Silvey.' Again it's a bit difficult to read.

I'm glad I haven't missed anything obvious!

Sandra

[dickiesam]

Bit of a coincidence in 1841? There's a Mary Silva in the household of a Johnson family. Father Henry and a son Henry...
JOHNSON, Henry - 30 - Mariner. [He could have been a plain seaman who decided not to sail anymore and was a labourer in 1847]
JOHNSON, Ellen - 30.
JOHNSON, Henry - 15.
JOHNSON, Robert - 15.
SILVA, Mary - 15.
BISPHAM, Alice - 20.
All born Lancashire.

Piece: 520 - Book/Folio: 10/44 - Page: 15
Address: Back Lane, Walton On The Hill, Lancashire.

[simone]

Hi

What about

1841 census
Henry Johnson 30
Ellen Johnson 30
Henry Johnson 15
Robert Johnson 15
Mary Silva 15
Alice Bispham 20

ahhh Brian snap!!!!!! lol

[Hilary]

How about at St Peter's priory RC Liverpool

23 June 1822 was baptized Mary Ellen daughter of John and Hannah Silva born 5th inst.

[MaryA]

I think you two have probably got them right, there never is any telling how the enumerator may have spelled the name, or whether it was the minister at the church that got it wrong.

[dickiesam]

Well found Hilary!
By Jove, we've got it! I really think we've got it!

[MaryA]

Well done Hilary also!

There are also two other baptisms, unclear writing but I'll give it a go

Born 23 baptised 27 July 1819 John Bridge son of John and Anna Silva - followed by S.S. and two names, so I'm assuming godparents Joze Ventura Lopez and Ellen Taylor

Born 26 February and baptised 7 March, 1824 Richard son of John Rofina and Hannah Silva S.S. John Dignam and Elizabeth Bridges.

The two names on the baptism of Mary Ellen were George Bridges and Mary Dawson

Interesting a foreign sounding name, and as there are two Bridge(s) sorry not sure whether there should be an S on the end or not, maybe they are also related.

[Hilary]

According to http://www.familysearch.org

John Rofine D'Silva married Hannah Bridge at St Annes Liverpool on 26 Feb 1811.

Marriage is on Ancestry and shows John to be a Merchant. One of the witnesses is a Richard Bridge. I reckon a Merchant would be described as a gentleman maybe?

[MaryA]

I think Sandra's going to be very pleased with what you have found.

[sper531695]

Thank you all for going to so much trouble.

The census record is very interesting. I had pulled up a different one - Book 14/Folio 33 which shows Henry Johnson as an ag lab in 1841, living in Walton on the Hill with Ellen and family but no member of the Silva family. I will look further into this. By the way on the census record I looked at I couldn't see a street name in the place column. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, Mary Ellen Silva does seem to be prime candidate at the moment. I'm going to obtain John Silvey's death certificate and see if this helps confirm or deny. This is is unfortunately my dad's side of the family and he just doesn't have any family stories or history to help me.

Thank you again,

Sandra

[MaryA]

The street seems to be dittoed down from Back Lane above.

[dickiesam]

Sandra,
I think that because Mary Ellen was illiterate to the extent she could not sign her name, it is quite possible she could not read either so would not recognise the difference between Silva and Silvey. Once a mistake had been made, perhaps by the minister who married them, the mistake 'stuck'.

There are a number of John Silveys/Silvys in 1841, but none of them are of an age to be Mary's father, so you need to be sure that the death for her father John, is the right name. If, for instance, she reported his death she might have used the name Silvy. Someone else might have used Silva or Silver. It is also possible he died before she married.

With the possibility of a Spanish or Portuguese connection [Joze Ventura Lopez] you should consider De or Da Silva as well.

[sper531695]

Hi, and thank you again for your help.

Hopefully the death cert for John Silvey should be a first step in confirming whether he can or can't be Mary Ellen's father. Although that still raises the question, as you point out, of whether the name has been spelt correctly at all.

If he can be ruled out of the equation (I don't know how old the John Silvey of the death cert is yet) then I can start looking at the Silvas/da Silvas and see if they make sense in this story. The 1822 entry of Mary Ellen does look very likely at this moment. The good thing is that there don't seem to be many of them on the records for Liverpool at this point.

With this and the questions around Lizzie Gaskill, my Dad's side of the family is a lot more mysterious than my Mum's side has been.

Thanks

Sandra