James Meehan (1889-1925)

[GRTexas]

I am still having difficulty finding any death records for both John Meehan and Ann (nee' Flannery) Meehan. In the lack of any evidence, the mind begins to wander. I have a general question about how suicides would have been handled by the RC in the late 1800s.

Would a person would commited suicide be allowed to be buried in a RC cemetery (Ford)? How would the civil authorities have documented their death?

Thanks to all.


Greg

[dickiesam]

Hi Greg,
If you have Patrick's birth cert does the date match this death?

Name: MEEHAN, Patrick
Registration District: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1972 / Apr-May-Jun
Date of Birth: 3 March 1891
Volume No: 10D; Page No: 678.

If this is the right Patrick the death cert will tell you who the informant was and their relationship to Patrick. It might provide a connection to his family.

Did Patrick's wife Annie [nee Pike] have a second forename initial W and was she born about 1887?

DS

[GRTexas]

Thank you for that information on my Grandfather's brother , Patrick. I will obtain a copy of his Death certificate and investigate further for living relatives.

My previous question had to do with my Great-grandfather (and Patrick's father) John Meehan (b. Sept. 1869) in Liverpool. He and his wife, Annie Flannery, left their 3 children orphans some time after 1898. The absence of death records for both of them are leading me to question the cause of their deaths.

Greg

[dickiesam]

Would a person would commited suicide be allowed to be buried in a RC cemetery (Ford)? How would the civil authorities have documented their death?

Second question first....
A suicide, as a death from 'un-natural causes' would have been reported to the coroner. There may or may not have been an autopsy. When the Coroner was satisfied as to cause of death a 'standard' death certificate would have been issued by the local Registry Office. In the 'Cause of death' column it would probably have a notation referring to the Coroner's Office. So the death would be in the GRO Death Index.

I stand to be corrected but I don't think the burial of an RC person who had committed suicide would normally be allowed in an RC cemetery. It is possible it would have depended on the priest and his interpretation of the 'rules'.

Regarding John and Annie Meehan [nee Flannery] can you post the census page reference for them in the 1891 census? In case you are not familiar with it the reference will look like: RG12 - Piece:??? - Folio:??? - Page:??

DS

[GRTexas]

Dickiesam,

The reference I have is RG12/2906, p. 26.

At that time John and Annie lived at 4 (?), 11 Court, Ford Street, Vauxhall, Liverpool with two children; James and Patrick.


Greg

[MaryA]

Folio is missed, please give this also.

[GRTexas]

MaryA,

I only have a printed photocopy of the 1891 census and cannot find a Filio number on it. My subscription to browse the census has lapsed. I just browsed the indicies and could not find them.???

I also have a certified copy of the Marriage certificate for John and Annie, dated 16 Sept. 1889. This shows them both living on Ford Street, but at an address different from the 1891 census.


Greg

[dickiesam]

Hello Greg,
Thanks for the pointer and the address! No wonder I couldn't find them in Findmypast! Meehan transcribed as Muham! Correction submitted. The full census page reference is RG12 / [Piece] 2906 / [Folio] 33 / [Page] 26.

Your query in the address 4 (?)... It means House 4, in Court 11, Ford Street. The courts were quite narrow alleyways, usually cul-de-sacs, with back-to-back houses on either side.

DS

[MaryA]

I'm fairly certain that the page is missing completely on Ancestry.

This makes interesting reading about Court Housing
http://jech.bmj.com/content/60/8/654.full

[dickiesam]

Hi,
I may be rehashing info from previous posts here and I might have missed something. But just pondering....

I believe from baptism records that these are children of John and Annie..
Birth Jun 1893: Meehan, Mary Ann - Liverpool - 8b - 56
Death Dec 1893: Meehan, Mary Ann - 0 - Liverpool - 8b - 22

Birth Mar 1895: Meehan, Elizabeth - Liverpool - 8b - 28
Death Mar 1897: Meehan, Elizabeth - 2 - Liverpool - 8b - 17

With regard to John, I don't know if you have checked these deaths:
Death Jun 1899: Meehan, John - 34 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 189 [bn 1865?]
Death Sep 1900: Meehan, John - 27 - Liverpool - 8b - 75 [bn 1873?]

I ask because there are John Meehans born in 1865 and 1873, but both are still alive in 1901. One is single, the other is married to Elizabeth. The age at death could have been a 'best guess' by the informant, as was often the case.

It is possible, and not that unusual, that if John had died Annie could have placed the two boys [and a daughter Mary born 1897] with relatives Patrick and Jane Meehan [RG13 - Piece: 3470 - Folio: 61 - Page: 20] simply because she had no income to support them and, with the absence of a marriage, became a common-law wife before the 1901 census where she would have used an 'adopted' surname.

DS

[GRTexas]

Dickiesam,

I am aware of both Mary Ann and Elizabeth. I have birth, baptismal, death and burial records (Ford) for both.

I could accept a birth year for John from 1869 to 1871, but outside that it would have to be a transcription error.

Your scenario for the fate of Annie is interesting, but if she were still alive it would eliminate the age error in John's death certificate. I would have found it more believable for her and the children to move in with brother-in-law Patrick had she been alive in 1901.

It certainly would be nice to be able to view the actual death certificates before ordering them from the GRO.

Greg

[MaryA]

I could accept a birth year for John from 1869 to 1871, but outside that it would have to be a transcription error.

Not necessarily - if the couple had split up or if he had been ill and gone into the workhouse/hospital, she may not have registered the death herself. In this eventuality the authorities may not have had a correct dob for him and best guessed, as was suggested by Dickiesam.

It certainly would be nice to be able to view the actual death certificates before ordering them from the GRO.
Greg

Unfortunately this is not possible. As you are out of England you may not be aware of what is available, we have put together some guidelines which will help to explain, please see this post.
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6937

[dickiesam]

Hello Greg,
Re ages on death certs.. I, and I would say others on this forum, have encountered errors of more than a couple of years in age at death. Quite often in those times the person concerned may not have known their precise YoB and proof of age was not required by the Registrar from the informant.

Similarly, ages that appear on census returns were sometimes either added to or reduced depending on the circumstances. A young man might add a couple of years when getting married. My maternal g.father added 5 years to his 18 when he married the 17 year old girl he had the 'misfortune' to father a child with. Her father was a collier! A widow in her late 30s might lose a couple of years to be a more attractive prospect to a second husband. I have one who lost 5 years when she remarried! There are many such 'circumstances' where an incorrect age might be entered.

With regard to Annie, we will never know the circumstances of her relationship with her Meehan in-laws so you should not rule anything out. She may not have been on amicable terms with them at all. But they took pity on the children.

DS

[GRTexas]

MaryA and Dickiesam,

Thank you for your help.

Having exhausted all other avenues, I guess I will have to find the closest matches on FreeBMD and then order copies from the GRO.


Greg

[dickiesam]

Hi Greg,
I think you will find these are the only two in the frame. I searched all counties in England with a YoB of 1869 +/- 5 years. These were the Liverpool deaths...

Death Jun 1899: Meehan, John - 34 - Toxteth Park - 8b - 189 [bn 1865?]
Death Sep 1900: Meehan, John - 27 - Liverpool - 8b - 75 [bn 1873?]

Plus one in Oldham but I can't confirm him in the 1891.
Name: MEAHAN, John Henry
Registration District: Oldham, Lancashire
Year/month of Registration: 1898 / Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 34
Volume No: 8D; Page No: 399.

DS

[GRTexas]

I finally received the death certificate for the John Meehan that died in Sept of 1900. Good luck! He is the correct John. He died in a Liverpool workhouse of tubercular arthritis.

The death certificate I ordered for His wife Annie (nee Flannery) turned out not to be the correct person. Annie seems to have disappeared. I guess, after leaving the children with her brother-in-law, so could have remarried or emigrated.

I am now on the search for John's parents; the original Meehans from Ireland. I know James and Mary Meehan died in Liverpool and have some death certificates on the way. They came from Dublin in the early 1860s.


Greg

[dickiesam]

Hello Greg,
Thank you for the update.
Very good news you have the right John Meehan. He would have died in the infirmary attached to the workhouse by the way.

Can you post the GRO reference etc for the death cert you ordered for Annie Meehan that turned out to be the wrong one? It will take that one out of future searches.

DS

[Ackers_Scott]

Hi

just a quick question are you sure he married Mary Knowles.. do you have your mums birth cert with Mary Knowles name on it..
Forgive me if you do, but have to be sure...

Its with you saying he was an Apprentice Tailor you see.. as there is another James Meehan in Liverpool around 1911ish born 1890 whos occupation was a Dresser Tailor his father was also called John he was a Tailor Maker.. mother named Mary and lots of siblings.
They resided in the Everton area..all born in Liverpool except dad John he was Irish.


xx

Hello, I seem to be related to John Meehan and Mary Daley ( eleven children). They are connected to the Scott family of
Roscommon, Ireland. Regards.

[GRTexas]

This family was a source of confusion to me as well. I have ample evidence that my great grandfather, John, was a stevedore (dock worker). I do have my grandparents marriage certificate to support this.

The Knowles side of the family is well documented and connections have been maintained over the generations.

The major obstacle in my search was the lack of originality in name selection. I found numerous pairings of James and Mary with Meehans, not to mention John and Ann. In fact, my G2 grandparents were also James and Mary Meehan (in Liverpool by way of Dublin).

Thanks for your comments though.

Greg

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. It's always good to make contact with a family member, I hope Greg overcomes his confusion with what you posted.