Robert Houghton & Mary Ann Ryan

[annron]

Hi All

This has been a really difficult one and I have tried on numerous occasions to sort it out but failed.

Robert Houghton & Mary Ann Ryan are my GGGrandparents. I cannot find a marriage for them, I have them on the 1881 census living at 2 Milk St, Wigan, with 4 children, Robert b1851 Halsall, Mary Ann b1850 Churchtown, John Joseph b1871 Southport, Elizabeth b1873 Wigan, Maggie b1878 Wigan, Annie b1878 Westhoughton. Annie is my GGrandmother and I have obtained her birth cert and her birth was registered in Wigan not Westhoughton.

1891 census Mary Ann, Annie, & Elizabeth are living at 52 John St, Ince and Mary Ann is recorded as widow and she states she was born in Southport, I cannot find a death for Robert Houghton.

Those are the only 2 census I feel sure about.

Annie married my GGrandfather Peter Hogan 29 Mar 1893 and I have everything one them it is before this date I don't seem to be able to sort out.

Also I can't find a birth record for a Mary Ann Ryan b1850 .

Any help will be welcome.

Thanks Chris

[MaryA]

It's not an answer to your queries above, but I think this would be Robert in 1871 and if his parents had died so he came to live with uncle, it would be an answer as to why his change of location.

Colliery Cottages, Rainford, Lancashire
John Houghton Head M 55 Lab at Coal Mine Lancashire Halsall
Jane Wife M 53 " " North Meols
Robert Nephew Unm 21 Coal Miner " Halsall
Thos Forshaw Lodger Widow 52 Coal Labr " Burscough
Richard " " Unm 20 Lab at Coal Mine " "
Hector Maudsley " " 19 " " "
RG10; Piece: 3868; Folio: 64; Page: 8

[Hilary]

This could be Robert's baptism

Baptisms: 29 Sep 1850 St Cuthbert, Halsall, Lancashire, England
Robert Houghton - Child of James Houghton & Elizabeth
Abode: Scarisbrick
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: R Leigh Rector

[annron]

Hi Mary & Hilary

I have seen those records and wondered if they were Robert. This is another record I found for 1861 census but the fathers name is John not James? and the surname looks like Halton but though it may have been wrote down wrong by the enumerator.

Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 2764; Folio: 14; Page: 1; GSU roll: 543025.

[annron]

There is also this one 1851 census which is a possibility.

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2197; Folio: 253; Page: 9; GSU but without his birth record I don't seem to be getting anywhere.

[MaryA]

There is a death for a Robert Houghton Q4 1910 Wigan 8c 2 age approx 60 making his birth date 1850.

In 1901 there is a 50 year old Robert, Labourer in a Coal Mine boarding at 3 Boyswell Lane, Wigan, condition is "M"arried with an Eliza age 52. RG13; Piece: 3552; Folio: 41; Page: 23.

In 1891 there is a "S"ingle 40 year old Robert, Coal Miner lodging at 33 Clayton St, Wigan. RG12; Piece: 3054; Folio: 17; Page: 27.

Both the above claim to have been born in Wigan, Lancashire.

In 1881 - I find no Robert born about 1850 in Wigan.
There is however, a possible in 1871 with parents John and Elizabeth.

What does it make anybody think?

[dickiesam]

Assuming that in 1891 Mary Ann really was a widow and not a deserted wife with some pride concerned about 'what the neighbours might think', there is a death for a Robert but the age at death is out aways.
HOUGHTON, Robert
Registration district: Prestwich, Lancashire
Year/qtr of registration: 1890 / Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at death: 34
Volume no: 8D; Page no: 287

The age at death given by the informant to the registrar was often a best guess, so this might be him. But it is the only death that is even a near 'fit' for him before 1891.

[dickiesam]

This would appear to be the Robert that Education Officer posted the baptism for...

1861:
HOUGHTON, John - Head - 32 - Coal miner - Wigan, Lancashire
HOUGHTON, Elizabeth - Wife - 31 - Wigan.
HOUGHTON, John - Son - 12 - Drawer in coal mine - Wigan.
HOUGHTON, Robert - Son - 10 - Wigan.
HOUGHTON, Thomas - Son - 2 - Windgate, Durham.
Address: 10 Vauxhall Road, Wigan.
RG09 - Piece:2772 - Folio: 84 - Page:20

[dickiesam]

Think this could be Robert's birth..
Births Sep 1849: HOUGHTON, Robert - Ormskirk - 21 - 551.

The Ormskirk registration district included Halsall, which is where Robert later claims to be from. I think the 1861 census entry of Wigan is an error by the parents. We know a lot of folk tended to be somewhat inexact or imprecise about place of birth.

[MaryA]

Thanks DS, so I'm probably barking up the wrong tree after all. Well it was worth a thought.

[annron]

I'm confused, the baptism says James & Elizabeth, 1861 census has John & Elizabeth parents, although the John & Elizabeth I think maybe more likely because 1st child was named John?

[dickiesam]

I'm confused, the baptism says James & Elizabeth, 1861 census has John & Elizabeth parents, although the John & Elizabeth I think maybe more likely because 1st child was named John?

Perhaps an error by the priest? Or was the original document in Latin and something like 'Johannes' got mistranslated to James, although James is usually Jacobus?

When I first came across Latin names in baptisms I asked our local priest for a list of the most common translations. He said sometimes the priest had to invent a Latin equivalent and sometimes got the name wrong, even the common ones such as James and John. Many a slip between ear and lip! Oh, and pen!

[annron]

Thanks DS for the explanation and the info you have found. Can you find anything for Mary Ann Ryan, can't seem to find a birth for her either, nor a marriage for her and Robert I know not all couples married but with a name like Ryan I'm thinking RC?

Chris

[Hilary]

There are 2 Robert Houghton's born in the Halsall/Scarisbrick area

Baptisms: 29 Sep 1850 St Cuthbert, Halsall, Lancashire, England
Robert Houghton - Child of James Houghton & Elizabeth
Abode: Scarisbrick
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: R Leigh Rector

Birth Reg Sept Q 1849 Ormskirk Reg District

In 1851 he is in Scarisbrick with his mother Elizabeth born Halsall, brother James aged 2 also born Halsall and himself Robert bn Scarisbrick. No area of Scarisbrick is given but it is the next township to Halsall

I think this is the Robert in Rainford in 1871. You'd need to find baptisms of James and John or their marriages to prove it.

I cannot see this Robert in 1861, I think this could well be the Robert who marries mary Ann Ryan

Then there is Robert born in Sept Q 1850 Ormskirk Reg district

In 1851 Hurlston Green Scarisbrick
John 34 grocer
Margaret wife 30
children William 6, Ann 4 and Robert 1 everyone bn Scarisbrick.

The family are still there in 1861 but listed as Halton.

I suspect that this the Robert who marries Catherine Heyes in 1874 and then is in Birkdale in 1881as a farm bailiff at the Birkdale Farm School and is still there in 1891

PS the baptism says James. Halsall is a Cof E church so is not a translation from Latin. I do not think the John and Elizabeth in Wigan are the parents of Robert born Halsall/Scarisbrick parents his parents are James and Elizabeth.

[annron]

Thanks DS, that makes sense and narrows it down a bit. Excuse me I meant Hilary not DS.

[dickiesam]

Hi Hilary,
So my 1861 was the wrong one. Now I was barking up the wrong tree!
Oh well, back to the keyboard....

[dickiesam]

Thanks DS for the explanation and the info you have found. Can you find anything for Mary Ann Ryan, can't seem to find a birth for her either, nor a marriage for her and Robert I know not all couples married but with a name like Ryan I'm thinking RC?
Chris

Hi Chris,
Haven't found a marriage for them. If Mary Ann was RC and Robert 'kicked with the other foot' maybe they didn't marry?
And can't find a birth for Mary Ann either. She claims to have been born in Castle Town, Lancs. As far as I know that is a suburb of Southport and would have come under the Ormskirk registration district. But she ain't there!

In Lancashire, between 1848 and 1852 there were 6 registrations of a Mary Ann Ryan birth; 2 in Manchester, 1 in Liverpool, 1 in Stockport and 1 in Ashton. Interestingly though my search came up with a military record that might explain why Mary Ann thought she was from Castle Town if there was a barracks there... Local knowledge needed...
Name: RYAN, Mary A
Regiment:15th Foot
Place: Drogheda, County Louth, Ireland
Year: 1848
Volume: 893; Page: 6;
Source: GRO Regimental Birth Indices.

Unfortunately you would almost certainly have to get the birth cert to find out who she was etc. And there is no evidence pointing that she is the right one as yet.

[annron]

Mmm DS thats interesting, was it Castletown or Church Town? On the 1871 census it looks like Church Town, and on the 1891 census she puts Southport, is there a Church Town near Southport?

Also on the 1901 & 1911 census there is a Mary Ann Houghton living at 197 Dorning St, Wigan, widow and she gives her birth place as Kirkdale, which I think is Southport.

Chris

[Hilary]

If Mary Ann was RC and was born in Churchtown the most likely place of baptism would be St Marie of the Sands Southport. Their registers are not on line. However there is no appropriate birth registration for her as DS says. If she was C of E it would be St Cuthbert's and their registers for the relevant time are also not on line.

Ryan is not a local surname.

PS Churchtown is the name given to the area around the parish church of St Cuthbert's North Meols. This was the original and only church until 1821. For those who know Southport it's the area near the Botanic Gardens.

[annron]

Thanks all for your efforts but I think this is going to have to go back into the 'Too Hard Basket' for now.

Chris