Philip Carlin (Sumner ?)

[dickiesam]

Hi Gerard and crew,
I think Ann could be David Gwin's step-daughter..
Births Dec 1894> McAllister, Ann - Liverpool - 8b - 91.

Her DoB fits with the 1901 Ann Gwin, parents Elizabeth and David Gwin. Her brother William A Gwin [1900] is also present.

Re Catherine DEVER! No need for that scan!
Marriages Mar 1909> Both Liverpool - 8b - 157.
DEVER, Edward and MCALLISTER, Catherine.

I think she is Elizabeth Gwin's sister although can't find a marriage for Eliz and David.
Hmmmm.... Thinks..... My crystal ball tells me the McAllister parents are William James [1856] and Margaret [1856].
See RG13 / Piece:3413 / Folio:66 Page:40 for Catherine [bn 1884].

There's confirmation a whole decade later re Dever/McAllister connection.

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

I couldn't find a Gwin/McAllister marriage either, no matter what the spelling.

This image from the Parish Register confirms what Katie said about always double checking! Quite a bonus!

[dickiesam]

Catherina Devlin, not Devers, as she appears on the marriage record...

I have it on the good authority of our local priest that back then priests would often literally 'invent' a Latin 'equivalent' for a name they hadn't come across before, especially surnames. There were 'standard' equivalents for forenames like Guiliamus, Gulielmo and other variations for William. But as evidenced by the Latin for William there was no standard spelling.

My NUJMB School Cert Credit in Latin has stood me in good stead over the years!

That Dever name is not uncommon, quite a lot are Irish in origin. FreeBMD throws up over 90 Dever births between 1860 and 1900, mainly in the North.

Dickiesam

[gerardsdarcy]

I am confused.com

The copy of the marriage entry I have is different to the one above.

How do I upload it for you to make a comparison

[dickiesam]

Hi Gerard,
The scan that MaryA posted is not a GRO marriage cert but a copy of the church record. I assume that is why there is a difference?

Courtesy of MaryA.....
You can't upload a scan directly to this forum so if you want to show a picture this is one of the easiest ways to do it.

1) Make sure the photo scan is the best quality image you can manage and is a reasonable size.

2) Join http://photobucket.com/ for free. This is an image hosting website.

3) Upload your picture to the above site and then click on the IMG Code under the photo you want to appear on the forum. A yellow box flashes up, with Copied written in it.

4) Now go to the 'Post a reply' box on the forum topic where you want show your photo. Write your message and to insert the picture hold down the Control Key while at the same time pressing the V key.

5) This will paste the code that you copied from Photobucket into your message.

6) Press 'Preview' to see your photo before you submit your message.

Have fun!
Dickiesam

[gerardsdarcy]

Had the run around with photobucket but managed it. Below is the register extract, I have sent Mary a copy by email

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Just wondering..
The image that Gerard posted is obviously different and I notice that it has the #709 or 902 in the top left corner and beneath that only the name Carlin is visible on the line where a name would go.

Because I didn't marry in an RC church back in 1911 I don't know if it was the practice for the church to issue two 'Certificates of Marriage', one to the bride and t'other to the groom? That would explain why the 'Carlin cert' has come down through his family, if indeed that what it did? Annie McAllister [now Carlin] would have a similar 'cert' with just Philip's details on it and the name McAllister on the extreme left.

And when did the practice of RC couples having to marry in a C of E church first and then have what amounted to a 'blessing' of sorts in an RC church cease? If there were two services is the Carlin name only 'cert' from the RC church and the one with two names on it from the C of E ceremony?

As for the Grogan instead of Gwynne, I'd put that down to poor literacy or hearing.

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

Not sure about when the double ceremonies finished, if indeed they did - it wasn't the service in a C of E church that was necessary but that an RC priest wasn't a registrar but a C of E minister was. So far as I know this is still the case nowadays when a registrar has to attend a marriage at an RC church.

I don't take the credit for having found the marriage entry, that was Katie, I have merely done the uploading for her. Katie's entry is from the Parish Register held at the Record Office, Ged's original copy was purchased from the Liverpool History Projects site.

I would be interested in hearing the comments from the owner of the site as to the origin of their entry, I am sure there is a simple explanation but I don't know what it is. I have emailed her and brought this thread to her attention and hope that she will respond.

[Katie]

In Roman Catholic baptism registers there will be a seperate column under the details of the child baptised. If the person baptised in the Catholic faith was getting married in a Catholic Church he will have gone to the Church he was baptised at to obtain a copy of his baptisimal certificate. The priest will then have entered details of the marriage underneath the original baptism. In this case.

Carlin 2nd August 1911 joined in marriage Ann McAllister at Holy Cross Liverpool in the presence of William Grogan and Catherine Devln.

Gerard must have a copy of the marriage certificate from the Register Office also

I have now received the marriage certificate of Philip Carlin (occ plumbers labourer) and Annie McAllister they were married on 2nd Aug 1911 at Holy Cross Church, Standish Street, L'pool and they were both living in Hunter Street L'pool No's 45 and 28. Both aged 17 and surprise surprise no fathers listed. Witnesses were William Given and Catherine Dever.

[Katie]

gerardsdarcy Can I ask you did Philip Carlin have any siblings (brothers or sisters?)

[gerardsdarcy]

Hello Katie,

Sorry for the delay in answering been tied up with other things.

I don't know of any siblings, however it would not surprise me if there turned out to be some half brothers and sisters, I have asked my sister to check with the family. I will let you know if anything turns up.

I would like to thank all those on the forum who have helped me in this matter, the picture is now a lot clearer from when I asked the first question and I have learned a lot along the way THANK YOU.

Wishing you all a happy Christmas and a healthy and prosperous new year.

[Katie]

The reason I asked if there were any siblings is that I was down at Sandhills 5th December and while I was there I looked in Fazackerly Cottage homes which was the original query that you posted on the forum and this is what I found

26/1/1900 Carlin Philip born 1897 Roman Catholic/ Mother in WW (Walton Workhouse) I also came across this entry

6th Feb 1903

John J Carlin born 1895 R/C Eliz in house
Elizabeth Carlin born 1898 R/C Eliz in house
Philip Carlin 1893 R/C Eliz in house All Discharged 27th February 1903 to Belmont Road

On www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk there is a baptism entry for:

Elizabeth Sumner baptised at St James Bootle Parents William and Elizabeth Sumner nee Carlin



When I returned to the Museum I looked for a burial of John J Carlin no entry, so I looked for a burial of John J Sumner and found one. Details below

Ford Cemetery JL 610

Elizabeth Hamilton Hunter Street 3rd Court 5th House aged 53 years buried 8th May 1934
John Joseph Sumner Hollymoor Hospital, Northfield Birmingham buried 18th April 1941
Edward Hamilton, 13, Henry Edward Street, Aged 68 buried 4th January 1944
Elizabeth Sumner 15, Vanburgh Road, L4 buried 31st August 1977

Upon finding this I checked the electoral roll for 5 in 3 court Hunter Street for 1933/34 and listed in the house were:

Hamilton Edward
Hamilton Elizabeth

Living at number 35 Hunter Street were

Carlin Philip
Carlin Ann
Gwin William Arthur
Gwin Isabella
Murray Philip

I then used the free index search for the 1911 census and typing in Hamilton in the name search box and 45 Hunter Street in the residence box I found the following family.

Hamilton Edward M 1876 35 Liverpool Lancashire
Hamilton Elizabeth F 1878 33 Liverpool Lancashire
Hamilton Elizabeth F 1898 13 Liverpool Lancashire
Hamilton John M 1897 14 Liverpool Lancashire
Hamilton Philip M 1895 16 Liverpool Lancashire

To get the full details of the 1911 census you will need to purchase credits

A further search of free bmd gave me these marriage entries

December qtr 1910

Bell William A Liverpool 8b 55
Hamilton Edward A B Liverpool 8b 55
Montgomery Jane Liverpool 8b 55
Sumner Elizabeth Liverpool 8b 55

I searched Lancashire BMD and Jane Montgomery married William A Bell at All Saints Liverpool. I searched for the other marriage entry of Edward Hamilton to Elizabeth Sumner. They are recorded as


SurnameForename(s)Spouse's SurnameSpouse's Forename(s)YearChurch
Sumner Elizabeth Archibald Edwardne Liverpool All Saints Liverpool Lancashire 2019LP/10/197.

All Saints registers are at Sandhills so I was unable to check the marriage out.

This is the correct family as Philip on his marriage ceritificate put his place of residence as 45 Hunter Street.

Phew what a puzzle.

[gerardsdarcy]

Thanks Katie really appreciate what you have done.

There is a family get together over Christmas so they might come up with some information, also there is family in Australia who are being consulted on the matter.

Will let you know what transpires.

Ged

[MaryA]

Very well done Katie, you put in a lot of research time there but came up with the goods.