James Rimmer, Liverpool

[aop27]

I have a problem with James Rimmer and his father William. Apologies if this is a little long but I thought better too much information than too little.

Starting with the absolutely known facts:

6th April 1926: Death certificate of James Rimmer. Died at the Royal Infirmary – “fracture of the base of the skull caused by being accidentally knocked down by a tramcar on the 5th instant”. Male, 49 years, of 49 Warburton Street, sawyer and wood machinist. Certificate received from coroner for Liverpool inquest held 7th April 1926.

17 October 1897: marriage of James Rimmer (22, bachelor) and Sarah Carmichael (19, spinster), both of Clare Street, fathers: William Rimmer, painter & Alexander Carmichael, slater. At the Parish Church, parish of Liverpool, established church, witnesses Samuel & April Frodsham (spelling?)

From the above we have also traced:

1901 census of 8/4 Court, Ross Vale, Liverpool
Everton, St Peters, Liverpool
James Rimmer, 24, Wood Sawyer
Sarah Rimmer, 21,
& children

About 1910-1912 - 11 Curzon Street, Liverpool
11 Curzon Street, Liverpool
James Rimmer 34 Wood sawyer Liverpool
Sarah Rimmer 30 Liverpool
& children

The above suggests a birth date (obviously on the assumption that the ages are correct) for James between the following dates:
7/4/1876 – 31/3/1877

FreeBDM has the following candidates:
Mar 1876 Rimmer James Prescott 8b685
Mar 1876 Rimmer James W.Derby 8b526 Liverpool
Mar 1876 Rimmer James Ormskirk 8b789
Mar 1876 Rimmer James Bury 8c537
Sep 1876 Rimmer James Manchester 8d221
Dec 1876 Rimmer James Edward Ormskirk 8b757
Jun 1877 Rimmer James W. Derby 8b491 Liverpool
Jun 1877 Rimmer James Ormskirk 8b763
Jun 1877 Rimmer James Ormskirk 8b768
Jun 1877 Rimmer James Liverpool 8b177 Liverpool
Dec 1877 Rimmer James Ormskirk 8b761
Dec 1877 Rimmer James Alfred W.Derby 8b471 Liverpool
Dec 1877 Rimmer James Henry Fylde 8e674

I have used the GRO option to only deliver certificates with the first name William for those marked as “Liverpool” above. Only one certificate matched:
Birth Certificate: 15th March 1877 of James Rimmer, 4 Ho 12 Ct Lambert Street, parents William and Mary Rimmer (formerly Sumner), venetian blind maker.

All very well & good. But is this the right William Rimmer? I can find this William (the venetian blind maker) in the following census returns
1861 census of 3 Norton Place, Liverpool (RG9/2690 f107 p28)
3 Norton Place, Liverpool
John Rimmer, 57, Porter
Elizabeth Rimmer, 52,
William Rimmer, 15, Plumber
Edward Rimmer, 54, Yard Man

1871 census of 6 ch(2) Lambert Street, Liverpool (RG10/3788 f76 p33)
6 ch(2) Lambert Street, , Liverpool
William Rimmer, 26, Window blind maker
Mary Rimmer, 25,
John Rimmer, 7,
William Rimmer, 5,
Richard Rimmer, 2,
Elizabeth Rimmer, 0.25,

1881 census of Lambert Street, Liverpool (RG11/3628 f145 p39)
4 in 12 Court, Lambert Street, Liverpool,
William Rimmer, 35, Window blind maker Hospital shop
Mary A Rimmer, 36,
John Rimmer, 17, Light porter
William Rimmer, 15, Shop boy
Elizabeth E Rimmer, 10,
Charles E Rimmer, 6,
James Rimmer, 4,
Mary Rimmer, 1,

1891 census of 11 Elm Terrace, West Derby (RG12/2987 f137 p49)
17 Elm Terrace West Derby, Liverpool,
William Rimmer, 45, Window blind maker
Mary Rimmer, 45,
Charles Rimmer, 17, Office boy
Mary Rimmer, 11, Scholar
James Rimmer, 11, Office boy
Albert Rimmer, 9, Scholar

Ages difficult to read to to enumerator marks
1901
West Derby, St Mary the Virgin, Liverpool
William Rimmer, 56, Window Blind Maker
Mary Rimmer, 56,
Mary Rimmer, 21, Washing Blue(?) Stamper (?)
Albert Rimmer, 19, Sawyer

Marriage certificate, 10 November 1862, to Mary Sumner (he: 19, she: 18 ) plumber of 4 Elgin Street gather John Rimmer & John Sumner warehouseman & bricklayer.

The main issue is “have I got the right birth for James Rimmer”? James’ birth certificate describes the father William as a venetian blind maker. His marriage certificate as a painter. The census returns repeatedly call him a ventian blind maker but his marriage certificate (and the surname Sumner between James’s BC and William’s MC is a key match) describes his as a plumber.

I know people change profession but is we have the right man he changes as follows:

15: plumber
19: plumber
26: window blind maker
32: painter
35: Window blind maker Hospital shop
45, Window blind maker
56, Window Blind Maker

Any thoughts appreciated.

[northmeols]

this is a possibility for the father


1881 British Census
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation
William RIMMER Head M Male 34 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Lithographic Artist
Margaret RIMMER Wife M Female 31 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Edith A. RIMMER Daur Female 6 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar
Margaret A. RIMMER Daur Female 2 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Margaret PRENDLEY Mo In Law W Female 74 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Source Information:
Dwelling 8 Caird St
Census Place Everton, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341880
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3672 / 100
Page Number 28

[MaryA]

While waiting to see what you thought of Susan's suggestion, I thought I would question

deliver certificates with the first name William for those marked as “Liverpool” above

Did you not request those for West Derby to be investigated as the addressed in question would suggest that to be the area rather than Liverpool?

[Tina]

Hi N.M
This Wm went onto have premises in Sth Castle St.
Doubtful he would be James father, quite wealthy.
All we know is James was born in 1877 from marr/census/death.
His father may not have been alive at the time of his marriage as it doesn't always state deceased.
aop I can understand you frustration regarding occupations

Tina

[aop27]

While waiting to see what you thought of Susan's suggestion, I thought I would question

deliver certificates with the first name William for those marked as “Liverpool” above

Did you not request those for West Derby to be investigated as the addressed in question would suggest that to be the area rather than Liverpool?

Sorry, yes - what I meant to say was that I've marked up both Liverpool & West Derby and looked at those - three of the four marked "Liverpool" are actually strictly West Derby. This text was originally written as a table with the FreeBMD entry on the left and the word "Liverpool" keyed in by me on the Liverpool & West Derby entries. The table didn't survive when I posted it so the text actually looks very confusing without the neat columns. My fault!

Not being local I've always found the difference confusing so look at them all!

[aop27]

Hi N.M
This Wm went onto have premises in Sth Castle St.
Doubtful he would be James father, quite wealthy.
All we know is James was born in 1877 from marr/census/death.
His father may not have been alive at the time of his marriage as it doesn't always state deceased.
aop I can understand you frustration regarding occupations

Tina

Thanks for checking that - I'm going to check him out tonight but wealth doesn't sit well with the known family.

I did wonder though whether he could have been a painter of window blinds!

[Hilary]

Personally I don't think the William the venetian blind maker is likely to be the same as a William a painter.

I know your James always says he was born Liverpool but there is always the possibility that he was born elsewhere and came to Liverpool as a very small child and therefore knew no difference. Rimmer is an extremely common name further up the coast in Formby, Ainsdale, Birkdale and Southport.


Hilary
Ed Officer

[northmeols]

checked every william rimmer living in lancashire on 1881 census only 2 are the one afore mentioned and this one, who have anything to do with paint as a profession

Birth Year <1835>
Birthplace Altcar, Lancashire, England
Age 46
Occupation Plumber & Painter
Marital Status U <Unmarried>
Head of Household Mary RIMMER
Relation Son
Dwelling 15 Chatham Place
Census Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341867
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3621 / 57
Page Number 23