Elijah Ashcroft c 1870 T/P L.pool

[colette]

Hi that Elizabeth must be Elijah & Mary's..

Elizabeth Ashcroft Birth Toxteth March 1892 8b 177

Which means Mary fell preggers about June-July 1891 which fits perfect, it makes sense..

Maybe Elizabeth was Elijah's mums name

[Gray]

Thank God for that Colette!!

Quite sad really>>
Family story.. and after this week do not take any notice!

Mary Ann Cosgrove was Catholic .. Elijah was protestant

After their marriage/ neither family wanted to know
How sad for all concerned

Just glad I am who I am/what I Am and just love ALL that we are without prejudice.
Lots of love

Grayxx

[colette]

Lots like that back then b....n religion has a lot to answer for, as long as people are caring and loving what else matters aye..

You never gave me the house number of Parliament St.. going through my 1891 discs... next street to Parliament St was Beaufort St.. theres an Edward W.B Connor aged 42 Custom Officer & Boatman had a little shop..
I am wondering if maybe Elijah worked for him..maybe taking stuff on his cart or something..

Only brought him up as hes closse by.

Colette

[Gray]

Hi Colette,

There was no numbers on marr cert.. just said parliament str. for both.

I have no doubt I will find him eventually, have waited this long.. few years more. hopefully 1911 will give me my answers?? :wink:
maye not to Elijah but his children??

Although I imagine I see him in my g.son Joshua..he has the red hair that I believe Elijah Had!!

Thanks for your interest and help.

Gray

[colette]

I recon he was Irish... if we had seen him on a couple of census's saying born Liverpool i may have thourght different...
I have seen a few people say Liverpool but found out from other census's they were from elsewhere..

Only thing that bugs me is i would have thourght he would be in the Toxteth area in April 1891.. marrying so soon after.. unless he had gone back to Ireland to tell his family he had met Mary and was going to marry her..

One of the descendants must know where he came from..i see you have done Violet and Anthony's kids Shirley. Janet.. Greta so they moved to Birmingham..
Elijah and Elizabeth i cannot seem to find children for.

Col


Colette

[Gray]

Hi again Colette..

My Ashcrofts.
closest family ..not the most family orientated.. in fact told me nothing..

What I have learned is through research and memories of names..

Violet Ashcroft aka Shirley 1912 married Anthone E Pinder 1933 cannot trace him either.... they separated/divorced??
Violet re-married a John H Boyd marylebone 3rd qtr 1952 5d 733( I do remember him) he was a photographer in London
Have to say though, what a real 'Beauty she was!!

Violet and anthony E Pinder had 4 girls

janet Pinder 1934/ l.pool L iverpool 1st qtr 1934 8b 99
shirley 1935 l.pool / Liverpool S 1st qtr 1935 8b 466
Greta 1937 Birmingham 2nd qtr 1937 6d 947
Nathalie c 1940 ??
all the girls married Americans after the war



Elijah 1904 and Elizabth Douglas LLoyd(aka Bessie)

Had twins: Gloria and Graeme born L.pool.. all I know
Bessie died quite young .. he was left to bring up the twins,,

Really need a lie down now..have to explain my headache!!
Thanks for all the help

Gray

[Gray]

No further forward with my Elijah.. but at least I have found some family

Am not finding ancestors but am finding family

Hope no-minds my ramblings this is what I have managed to trace for Amy Kennedy(motor-bike rider)

Amy kennedy born 1916:

Father: Fergus Fergus Kennedy born 1890 Fazakerley
mother: Amy Thomas c 1890 L.pool?? (have still to find)

Census for Fergus F Kennedy 1890:

1891: 3 Greenwich st; Walton on the Hill
1901: Sherwood Lane Fazakerley

marr: 1915 St Peter Aintree (Lancs Bmd)

Siblings to Amy:

Fergus J Kennedy 1919 L.pool West derby 3rd qtr 8b 91
Joan Kennedy 1921 L.pool west derby 4th qtr 8b 480


and am now tracing the Kennedy's back to Lanarkshire Scotland

Just want to say thanks to Colette and Teresa.. for their help!!


Grayx

[Gray]

Is this my Elijah Or am on a flight of fancy??

Me again folks, bear with me-need your expert opinion
This is complicated..



Decided to look at all Elija's born c 1870 L.pool

Found 1871: RG10 piece 3802 Folio 81 page 28

Elijah McMoran(McMorran)? west derby march 1870 8b 290 Free BMD

Father: John McMoran c1823 Ireland
Mother: Catherine ? c 1833 Ireland

Looked for John 1823 Ireland and found him:

1861: RG9 Piece 2699 folio 95 page 38

married but to a Margaret ? born c 1828 Ireland (cannot find her death)
children:
Mary Ann Jane Mcmorran c 1850 Ireland
John c 1854 L.pool
Catherine Margaret c 1857 L.pool

They also have a Catherine Ashcroft a visitor born c1833 Ireland
Has 2 children with her but no hubby?
Matthew Henry Ashcroft c 1858 L.pool
William (Wilington)census sp. born 1860/Free BMD william wellington Ashcroft W/D sept 1860 8b 3-0

Matthew Henry Ashcroft is on the 1871 with Catherine and John listed under the surname McMoran.


Did Catherine Ashcroft (cannot find marr yet) live as the wife of John Mcmoran and her children (Ashcroft) use his name?
1871 household: All have the McMoran surname

John 1823
Catherine 1833
John 1853
Catherine Margaret 1856 (children to Margaret)

Matthew Henry Ashcroft c 1859
William john or James? c 1864
David George West Derby march 1866 Free BMD reg:under Ashcroft
Abraham Arthur cannot find birth c 1868
ELIJAH 1870


Am trying to find them in further census BUT not having much luck yet.

Sorry this is long winded but only way I can explain it

Regards
Gray

[Gray]

Assuming I am right and if wrong back to the drawing board

Have found 2 sons listed under Mc Moran 1871 census.. married under Ashcroft

David George Ashcroft 1866 married Jessie Morris 1888 St Nichs Lancs BMD (she was born Glasgow c 18680

1901: RG13/3478

David George Ashcroft L.pool
Jessie 1868 Glasgow Scotland
Jessie 1889 L.pool
David 1891 "
Jane 1893 "
William 1899 "

Also listed in the house: Marion Morris 1877 sister born Dublin 1877
Harold Ashcroft c 1900 nephew born L.pool



Have also found a Absalam Arthur Ashcroft 1868 L.pool married mary C Cooper St John the Baptist T/P 1892 Lancs BMD

1901 census: RG/13/3431
Absolam Arthur Ashcroft c 1868 L.pool
Mary C 1871 L.pool
Mary C 1893 "
Margaret J 1895 "
Lilian 1898 Manchester
Elias 1900 L.pool


Unless you know better


Grayx

[Gray]

Update

More ramblings.. to anyone who will listen

I now believe my previous post was correct..

My Elijah Ashcroft c 1870 T/P L.pool was registered as:

Elijah Mcmoran..

On the 1861/71/census he has a half sister Catherine Margaret McMoran
West derby sept 1856 8b 251 (Free Bmd)

There is a marr on Ancestry .. Lancs BMD.. and Free Bmd for a

Catherine Margaret McMurren to a William Caesar CRELLIN born c 1856 Isle of Man.
Marr ref: L.pool june 1881 8b 118

I believe the surname for Catherine has been misheard or mistranscribed

However:

One of the witnesses on Elijah's marr cert was CATHERINE CRELLIN

Have now sent for her marr cert for confirmation..

The only reason I can think that Elijah married under the name Ashcroft was that Catherine and John Mcmoran never married

I may never get any further back with this line of my family.. just glad to get this far.. after soooo long

Grayx

[Gray]

Hopefully your not fed up with my Elijah
Bet you are

Have finally found him on the 1881 census:
family transcribed as Mc Murden
RG11
Piece/folio 3644/118
page 33

address: 21 Longville street toxteth park

John Head aged 48 ( age bit out on previous census widr lab born Monaghan Ireland
Catherine dau born c 1856 born L.pool ( married william Caeser Crellin)
David born c 1865 born L.pool reg ashcroft
Abraham born c 1868 " (Absolom)?? reg ashcroft
ELIJAH born 1870 "
Elizabeth born c 1875 " reg ashcroft

Catherine c 1856 was Margarets child

All the other children are John Mcmoran or John Ashcrofts ??? children..

My instinct says that when Catherine Ashcroft was a visitor on the 1861 census she was Margarets sister.. margaret died ..
Catherine lived as the wife of John McMoran(McMorran).. but cannot marry as it was illegal to marry the spouse of a sibling??

Cannot fathom why Elijah is registered as Mcmoran(McMorran)? and the others are registered Ashcroft??

Gray

[Gray]

Don't know which 2 bits of info I am most chuffed about today

Had a mail out of the blue today..via LSW Genealogy
From a cousin or possibly a 2nd cousin.. ?? still to find out
certainly very much connected to my Elijah!

Has been reading my ravings


Have yet to assure I'm sane

Am over the moon...

Also received the B/C for who I believe is my Elijah Ashcroft/Mcmorran?



entry No: 358

Reg dist West Derby and Toxteth Park County of Lancaster

birth date: 25 1/1870
address: 23 Tamworth street T/P

Father: John McMorran occ: dock labourer
mother: Catherine McMorran formerly Woods

Reg: 4/3/1870
Registrar: H Buckwaeter


From one very happy lady

Gray

[johnlee]

Hi Gray

I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread but I am keen to find out the parents of this same Elijah Ashcroft.

Elijah Ashcroft is my Great Great Grandfather.
His Son John Ashcroft is my Great Grandfather
My Grandfather is John Alan McGregor

John Alan McGregor was born on the 2nd of May 1926
He Married June Lawless in January 1947 and Died in February 2003.

Until a few days ago I knew neither his Father nor Mother. I can now confirm that his Father was John Ashcroft Son of Elijah Ashcroft.

After a bit of digging I have a suspicion his mother may have been Carmen Dimeck. His birth certificate lists his Mothers maiden name as Dimeck (i have not got a copy of the certificate yet so only know last name). I can find a Carmen Dimeck who married a man called John McGregor a few years before my Grandfathers birth.

It is my understanding that my Grandfathers mother gave him to the Ashcroft family when he was born and he never saw her again.

My reason for believing Carmen Dimeck is his mother is that it seems too much of a coincidence that she married a man called John McGregor and my Grandfather is called John Alan McGregor. Is it possible she pretended the child was her husbands then gave him away after birth? Was she still married then? I also want to point out that I have no evidence to suggest Carmen Dimeck is his mother and it feels wrong to be suggesting she was with no evidence. There were very few Dimecks in the country so that helps narrow it down.

I suppose I have a lot of questions here so I apologise - Sorry.

My Grandfather had a memory from his childhood that his father had a storming argument with the family one day, left the house and never returned.

I spoke to a member of the Ashcroft family who lives here in Australia and he confirmed that John (or Jack as they called him) Ashcroft did leave the house and never returned. The family never knew what happened to him.

My main three questions then are this:

1) Is the Elijah Ashcroft in this thread the same Elijah McMoran, McMurren as noted above? and does anyone know who his parents where?

2) Could Carmen Dimeck be my Grandfathers mother?

3) What happened to John Ashcroft? since he left the house that day nobody knows anything.


Thank you to anybody that can help me with this search

John

[Tina]

Hi John
For the peeps

John McGregor oct-dec qtr 1930 Liverpool rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Donald H McGregor oct-dec qtr 1928 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Mary A McGregor jul-sep qtr 1927 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

John A McGregor bn apr-jun qtr 1926 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Angela McGregor bn apr-jun qtr 1924 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.
More kiddies to 1940 which I won't list

Tina

[Gray]

Hello John,

Nice to hear from you.

As you will see from this thread the whole thing is very, very complicated!!!

I can answer Q1 straight away:
These details are from Elijah's birth cert:
Elijah McMorran boy
born 25/1/1870
Father: John McMorran occ: dock labourer
Mother: Catherine McMorran formerly Woods
address at birth: 23 Tamworth Street Toxteth Park Liverpool

The spelling varies for the Mcmorran surname considerably.

I believe that this is Elijah BUT his name was almost certainly Ashcroft.. as John McMorran & Catherine never married.
I do believe that Catherine married John Ashcroft but cannot find that marriage. Possibly they married Ireland, she was born there. Have never been able to trace John Ashcroft Snr..

When it came to Elijah's marriage he had to use the name Ashcroft, simply because he was Legally Ashcroft.

Q2. i have never come across the name Carmen Dimeck during my research.. I will try and see what I can find.

Q3. I have no answers as to why John left the house (he was my g.mothers' younger brother she being Edith Ashcroft born 1897).
My g.mother kept things very close to her chest, she never discussed her family with me.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Gray


edit: Forgot to say. Most important:
Although Elijah was an Ashcroft his father was John McMorran

[Gray]

Have tried a few times to p.m you John, to give you my e mail

Not sending at the moment, will try later.

Gray

[Gray]

Hi All,

I have not added any updates on my 'Ashcroft' family for some time simply because I thought 'all' would be 'fed up' with him.

Since there is this recent interest I thought there may be others in L.pool looking for this very elusive family

Taken from the 1911 census

address: 16 Cardigan st; Wavertree.

Occupants:

Elijah Ashcroft occ: corporation maintenance lab
Mary Ann wife (nee Cosgrove)
Edith born 1897 (my nan)
John born 1899 (recent interest)
Catherine 1902
Elijah 1904
George 1907 (Have no idea what happened to George and William)
William 1910

Children born after 1911

Violet (aka Shirley) born 1912
Alfred Charles (aka Charles) 1915
Rosalie 1918


There are 2 other children missing from the above.

Their 1st born was a Mary Elizabeth Ashcroft born 1892 L.pool, she is not on the 1901 census with her family?

By 1911 she has married a Edward McDonagh born Dublin 1883 occ: builders lab

There is a daughter listed:

Lilleth Veronica McDonagh aged 1 born L.pool.

Later children born after 1911 census: All L.pool


Eileen McDonagh 1912
Desmond D 1915
Doreen 1917
John G 1920
Terence E 1922
Moyna D 1924
Kevin R 1927

The other dau born to Elijah and Mary Ann was Esther Letitia born 1896 died 1896

I really hope this may be of use to someone looking for their Ashcroft family.

Grayx