Help with finding Edward Barratt - Mystery Man

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 11 Sep 2009 02:57

Hi Everyone,

For years I have been trying to find out about my husband's grandfather - Edward Barratt. I have left messages on this forum about him before and always had so much help with finding members of his family but Edward still remains a bit of a mystery. I will tell you his story and try to keep it brief.

He was born in October 1901 at 75 Ann St, Stockport. His parent’s names on the certificate were Edward Barratt & Ann O'Connor. His father was a cabinet maker (journeyman).

In 1911 he was living at 5 Rupert Terrace, Garden Lane, Everton Brow with his parents Edward & Ann and his sisters Elizabeth & Christina. Edward snr was a cabinet maker and his wife and two daughters were bottle washers for the ‘Mineral Water Works’. Edward was 9 and at school.

Fast forward to Australia and 1937 where he marries Dorothy Doody at St Christophers, Breakfast Creek in Queensland.

I have all of the census records for the family and have traced the rest of the family (even met some in England this year) but still can’t find much about Edward between the 1911 census and his marriage in Australia in 1937.

I’m wondering if anyone can offer suggestions about any other areas to search between those dates.

I have no idea when he came to Australia. The family story is that he met Dorothy and wanted to get married but Dorothy was caring for her sick, elderly parents and wouldn’t leave them. They waited seven years to be married. If that story is true the arrival time would be narrowed down to between 1919 (he would be 17 or 18) and 1930.

I have found two possibilities for his immigration records.

The first possibility was found on a list of crew and passengers of ‘City of Cairo’ that left from Manchester and arrived in Sydney on 11th April, 1919. Edward was an assistant steward aged 17 from Manchester

The 2nd possibility was found on a departure list from London on 12th February, 1924 aboard ‘Jervis Bay’ heading for Australia with the intention of Australia being his future residence. The port at which he was contracted to land was Fremantle, Western Australia. Edward J Barratt – Age 24 – Seaman. His last address in England was 223 Sherrard Rd, Manor Park, London East.

In Australian veteran affairs records, Edward listed his occupation as a French Polisher. Although my mother-in-law barely knew her father (he left the family after WW11) she distinctly remembers hearing that he was a French Polisher and very good at it. I’m wondering if that could have been something that he learned in England before coming to Australia. Are there any apprenticeship records in England anywhere?

I also wonder if he fought in WW1 for England. I can’t find any record of that but he would have been the right age to enlist.

The relatives that I recently met from Liverpool said they were told when they were young that he had joined The Foreign Legion but weren’t sure if it was true or a joke. They were also told he was in New Zealand.

Thanks for reading this long rant. Hope someone can think of something for me to try.

Bye
Leonie

Post by **dickiesam** » 14 Sep 2009 15:31

Hello Leonie'
Do you know if Edward had a second forename (or even an initial)?

Been thinking about the family story of not being able to marry Dorothy because of her sick mother... Having come across similar lore in my own tree, I am thinking it is possible Edward may have already been married and the couple had to wait until his divorce came through. Back then it could take up to 10 years for an average working-class person by the least expensive route. The moneyed-folk could do it in a couple of years!

Between 1918 and 1930 (all counties - FreeBMD) there are only 14 Edward Barratt marriages and at least half of them have a second forename. There are none in Cheshire, but there is one in Lancs (Liverpool) to an Agnes Cammack - West.Derby - 8b - 1075 - June 1920.

Re the French polisher trade. It goes hand in hand with good old-fashioned cabinet making, his father's trade. It's quite possible he learned the polishing trade in the workshop etc. My paternal g.father was a cooper and a cabinet maker and married a French polisher! It is possible that there was a Guild of cabinet makers in the Cheshire/Stockport area and there may still be records. Would be worthwhile sending an email query to the Chester Archives.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 14 Sep 2009 22:48

Hi Dickiesam,

Thanks for your help...

I do not have a middle name for Edward on any of the papers that I have. The only middle initial (J) that I found was on one of the possible immigration records for him.

It would be interesting to find that he did marry in England before coming to Australia. Another mystery about him that I have been trying to research in Australian records was the fact that he remarried here while still married to Dorothy.

Another family story - Sometime in the 1950's apparently there was a court case between Dorothy & Edward over the war pension or something like that. It was discovered then that he had married someone else. I have never been able to prove any of this but I am off to the records offices in Sydney in October and hopefully I will solve this once and for all for my mother-in-law. What a twist if we find Dorothy was his 2nd wife!!! Where's that bloody 1921 Census!!!

I will take your advice and email the Chester Archives about the french polishing connection and keep my fingers crossed there may be something there.

Thanks again
Leonie

Post by **dickiesam** » 14 Sep 2009 23:12

Hi Leonie,
It would be an idea to post a request for SKP to do a marriage lookup for the one I found.
To: Agnes Cammack - West.Derby - 8b - 1075 - June 1920.
Might tell his age and father's name and occupation to confirm it is himself?
Cheers,
Dickiesam

Post by **Hilary** » 14 Sep 2009 23:28

It's only possible for someone to do a marriage look up if the church is known. Unfortunately The Edward/Agnes marriage shows on lancashire bmd as a Register office or registrar attended marriage so it's not possible to do a look up. Sorry the only way would be to order the marriage certificate stating who Edward's father is.

We've only just had the 1911 census and the 1921 census apparently is covered by totally different legislation to previous censuses!

Ed Officer

Another thought what about Australian Electoral Rolls - when does he first appear in those?

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 15 Sep 2009 00:10

Thanks for both of your suggestions.

I will order the marriage certificate and I can always add it to my growing collection of 'unwanted' certificates!

I am going to spend a few days at the records centres in Sydney in October. Top of the list is going through all of the electoral rolls to try and find him.

He confuses things a bit with his name in his later years in Australia. He tried 3 times to join the army. On his third attempt he used his mother's maiden name of O'Connor and was accepted. He had to change everything on his third application because of his two earlier attempts. Date of birth, birthplace, next of kin were all wrong but he used Dorothy's birthdate and gave his sister in England as his next of kin. That one thing about his sister is what helped me trace him back in England so his lies came in useful!!

His death certificate actually reads Edward O'Connor otherwise Barratt.

A lot of his activities were in Queensland and it is a bit harder to access these records than the NSW ones. Looks like a holiday in Queensland on the horizon...

Bye
Leonie

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 01 Oct 2009 03:32

The marriage certificate has arrived and it's him!!

This opens up a whole new can of worms!!

Edward was 18 when he married Agnes Cammack (also 18) in 1920 at St Mary of the Angels Church. In 1937, in Australia, he married Dorothy - AS A BATCHELOR.

I wonder if he has run away from Agnes or has Agnes died and he was running away from that. This is an unbelievable finding. If Edward and Agnes had any children they would be half siblings to my mother-in-law Chris.

I will keep digging but if anyone can offer more suggestions that would be great.

Without this forum (and Dickiesam) I would never have thought that he had married before Dorothy.

Thank You...

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 01 Oct 2009 08:17

Derrrr...

He married Dorothy - AS A BACHELOR.

Post by **MaryA** » 01 Oct 2009 10:10

Thanks for the update.

I think your first job is to go through the death indexes, and unfortunately at that date it's a page by page job.

I've known bachelor or spinster be noted on the certificate of a widowed man before now, but I'm wondering if he claimed this because Agnes had died in another country and he felt he was beginning a new life. So good luck, I hope you find her death.

Post by **marchbird** » 01 Oct 2009 12:19

Hi Leonie

It looks as if these are likely births for Edward and Agnes before he went to Australia. All had Cammack as mother.

(On the request of the Barratt family I have deleted these details as some people mentioned are still living.)

Marchbird

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 01 Oct 2009 13:57

Thanks Marchbird. I am in shock!!

This is unbelievable... I have gone over everything so many times and it has to be him!!!

I keep thinking I have made a mistake. Can someone tell me how I attach certificates to this forum so I can see if everyone agrees that I have it right?

That means he has fathered a child (his 6th) in 1934 in England and married Dorothy in Australia in 1937. He could even have travelled back and forth.

I need to try and track down these Barratt children if they are still alive. Their ages range from 75 to 88 so it is still possible.

It also means he has 2 daughters called Christina if the English one survived.

Post by **MaryA** » 01 Oct 2009 14:45

Instructions for showing a photograph in your message here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6279

But please remember to crop to the relevant portion, don't show the complete certificate.

Post by **Hilary** » 01 Oct 2009 17:30

I'm sure you're in shock but looking positively you have a time span for his trip to Australia!!

If you find any living relatives from the first marriage they're likely to be totally unaware of what has happened.

Ed Officer

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 01 Oct 2009 21:32

Thanks Ed Officer.

I am in shock but very excited. I do understand these 'children' may not know so will tread lightly. There are a few records of a seaman named Edward Barratt between 1919 and 1924 that I found entering Australia & Ellis Islands. Maybe he lived between both countries for a while.

I realise that stories passed down are not always true but the story is that he knew Dorothy for 7 years before they married. That would mean he met Dorothy in 1930 and his last child in England is born in 1934.

Thanks Mary A for your help. I followed all of your instructions for uploading photo but stuffed up somewhere. In the meantime I have emailed them to one of the relo's that we met in Liverpool to get her to cast her eye over and tell me if I have got it right.

I leave for a holiday in Germany in just over 24 hours so if I am not very responsive to emails I am in the air or on a bus tour!! What a time for this discovery. I will have access to my emails (of course) while I am away.

Thank you to everyone and we would have never known this story (just as Edward probably wanted) if it wasn't for this forum and all of the help that I've received.

Post by **MaryA** » 02 Oct 2009 11:36

Hope you have a good time on your trip to Germany and we look forward to hearing if you manage to further your searches on your return.

Post by **Hilary** » 02 Oct 2009 15:33

Just to say that if Edward left before the last child was born (according to family stories) any further children would be registered as his because at registration her name would be given as Barratt formerly Cammack and her husband would be given as the father if you see what I mean. However Edward might not be the biologically father.

Oh it's getting complicated. If Edward was a french polisher would he ship as a seaman?

Ed Officer

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 20 Oct 2009 02:58

Hi,

I'm back from Germany and back on the hunt!!!

I have done a bit of searching and I have some possible marriages and deaths for the children of Agnes & Edward Barratt.

(I have deleted the details about the children as some of them are still living and I do not wish to hurt anyone by this news)

Does anyone know how I would access records to see if Edward & Agnes ever divorced? I might order the death certificate of Agnes and it may shed some light.

I have emailed the Liverpool Echo & Liverpool Daily Post to see if they will print a story (I've had luck in the past with newspapers if they have a gap to fill) and hopefully at least one of these children are still alive and might get in contact.

I am also going to pick a few of the married daughters names and write to a few random people in the Liverpool area. This was how I found the 1st cousins of my mother-in-law.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for finding them?

Thanks again everyone for all of your help.

Leonie.

Post by **Hilary** » 20 Oct 2009 09:06

In response to your idea of picking people with the same name as the possible married name of the daughters I feel you really need to tread very carefully here.

Personally I think you should first find out if any of the possible marriages are true and then start looking for living descendants. How you then approach them would need some very careful thought as you can be almost certain they would have no idea of the existence of another family in Australia. I appreciate your excitement but feel you really need to think about how they might feel.

Have you tried www.lancashirebmd.org.uk to see if any possible marriages appear there? If they do you could ask for a look up and at least check they are correct before doing anything else?

Ed Officer

Post by **BarrattFamily** » 20 Oct 2009 09:55

I agree with you totally... Thanks for your advice.

I have already gone ahead and ordered some of the certificates to get more proof before I do anything else.

I have drafted a letter that I will improve on before finally sending any letters out to anyone. I have worded it very carefully so I hopefully don't upset anyone but it is a very difficult thing to write. It is a bit different when you find these things out about great grandparents etc but these are possibly living people and it was their father!

On the other side of things, no-one is getting any younger (my mother-in-law at 72 is the youngest) and they may be like her and very keen to find out about it. They may also be like her in the fact she never really knew him, because he abandoned the 2nd family when they were very young too, so she doesn't find it upsetting. She is surprised by it and also a bit excited about the possibility of having half siblings out there somewhere.

It is a very difficult situation but if I go too slowly it could be too late for any of them to have any contact if they wish this.

I will tread very carefully.

Post by **MaryA** » 20 Oct 2009 12:31

Ed Officer's advice is very good and I only have a little more to add at this stage.

Your investigations have now brought you very close to people who may be living and if you have a marriage confirmed, with the use of both surnames you can attempt to discover whether they had any children by using the birth indexes on Ancestry.

Then you might find it useful, if the local newspapers aren't helpful to post, very carefully worded, on the Liverpool Echo online - www.icliverpool.co.uk.

I would ask that you don't post any more recent details online as some of these people may be living and their privacy initially at least, should be ensured.