Smith family confusion

[JohnnyO]

A little bit more to go on (no undertakers yet Bert, sorry ). Just speaking to the mother in law. Her dad (George Clifford Smith) definitely had 2 siblings, Dora (Yay) and Walter. She seems to recall meeting Dora only once. MIL was born 1931 and vaguely (very) remembers Dora having 2 children. Walter was the youngest, hence not being in the 1911 census. There is a FreeBMD entry of a Walter Smith being born in Q1 1916 in West Derby to mother Smith. Funny, GRO has the same record (8b 564) but with no mother's name against it. Wonder if she had left Clifford Walter Smith by then, but why does FreeBMD report it but not GRO? Maybe I'll have to buy another certificate for Walter

[Bertieone]

John,

It seems the FreeBMD volunteers have transcribed all the information available to them and the GRO have withheld some mothers maiden names were I suspect there is no father mentioned

If Walter Smith is the son of Clifford, shouldn't he have a mothers maiden name different from Smith, unless of course there is another woman involved named Smith? then I think the GRO would have included the mothers maiden name.

[MaryA]

In other discussions it seems to have been concluded that the GRO report a missing father on a birth certificate differently to other sites, so just the one name should indicate an unmarried mother, whereas surname Smith + mother's maiden name Smith may well be indicative of a Smith marrying another Smith.

[luxor]

Familysearch show two Walter Smiths born in West Derby in 1916; Walter G Smith, mother Philson and Walter Smith, mother Smith.

They show the death of a Walter Smith - born 1916 - in West Derby in 1917.

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... 1916-1916~

[JohnnyO]

Familysearch show two Walter Smiths born in West Derby in 1916; Walter G Smith, mother Philson and Walter Smith, mother Smith.

They show the death of a Walter Smith - born 1916 - in West Derby in 1917.

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... 1916-1916~

Hi all; thanks, I saw both Smith entries. I didn't know if the mother would be classed as Smith as that was her 'husbands' name because she had left him at the time of the birth and was an unmarried mother. No record of any Philson in the tree, but just looked at FreeBMD and a Walter N Smith married a Monica M Philson in Q2 1915, which would tie in with a 1916 birth for either Smith. There does not appear to be a Clifford Smith marrying a female Smith anywhere though on FreeBMD.

Regards, John

[JohnnyO]

Just an addendum to the above. I was searching for Walter Smith on Ancestry and came across a great war record for a Walter Smith, with details of his spouse being Monica Mary Philson, and their son being Walter Gerald Smith, born 22nd June 1916. That effectively removes that GRO entry, meaning that the only Walter Smith born in West Derby was the one in Q1 with the name 'Smith' for the mother.

The only fly in the ointment being that Clifford Smith's middle name was Walter....

[JohnnyO]

Well certificate for Dora May Smith has arrived. The family appear to have moved from Fonthill Road in 1907 to Goldie Street in 1909, about a mile away. Father is still showing as Clifford Smith but now a general labourer as opposed to dock labourer. Mother is now Alice Parry not Groves. New woman or changed her name?

[MaryA]

The only thing I can think of is that female Groves may have been the mother of George and Alice Parry was the mother of Dora May.

Head still hurting.

[JohnnyO]

The only thing I can think of is that female Groves may have been the mother of George and Alice Parry was the mother of Dora May.

Head still hurting.

Mine too . Murphy's law that both women, if different, were both called Alice . They must have moved around a lot, as 2 years later in the 1911 census they lived in Pyne Street in Kirkdale.

[Bertieone]

Does the informant of the birth actually sign anything (7)?

Only sight of the original signatures would help determine if they are the same person.

Notice on the copies, signature for informant, one had signed Alice Smith, the other A Smith.

We don't receive the original registration do we?

[JohnnyO]

Does the informant of the birth actually sign anything (7)?

Only sight of the original signatures would help determine if they are the same person.

Notice on the copies, signature for informant, one had signed Alice Smith, the other A Smith.

We don't receive the original registration do we?

This looks very much like a cut and copied extract from a page of entries, and the whole sheet is completed by one person. I was looking for the family in the 1901 census, but not having much joy with that either!

[MaryA]

We don't receive the original registration do we?

Now and again from a local office, but not always

[Bertieone]

We don't receive the original registration do we?

Now and again from a local office, but not always

Thanks Mary,

If Dora May's certificate is a copy from a page of entries? and clearly done by the same hand, where is the original signature of the informant?

I'm assuming there is one, otherwise the column 7 is misleading.

[JohnnyO]

We don't receive the original registration do we?

Now and again from a local office, but not always

Thanks Mary,

If Dora May's certificate is a copy from a page of entries? and clearly done by the same hand, where is the original signature of the informant?

I'm assuming there is one, otherwise the column 7 is misleading.

In fact both images I have uploaded are extracts. The wording being "certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of births". So, a copy of a copy of the original! Without seeing sight of the original, there is no way of comparing handwriting. Is there any way of seeing these originals anywhere I wonder? Maybe the elderly aunt has inherited them from her father, George Clifford Smith, although she has never mentioned it

[MaryA]

where is the original signature of the informant?

I appear unfortunately to be confusing this with marriage certificates, assuming that birth and death certificates were treated the same but I'm doubting myself now.

The wording being "certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of births". So, a copy of a copy of the original!

No copy from the GRO can ever be a copy of the original. All registers, and I'm assuming it still happens in a similar manner, are copied by the Registrar each quarter and sent to the GRO for their uses. What you have is a copy from the GRO Register, the original being kept by the local office.

[JohnnyO]

where is the original signature of the informant?

I appear unfortunately to be confusing this with marriage certificates, assuming that birth and death certificates were treated the same but I'm doubting myself now.

The wording being "certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of births". So, a copy of a copy of the original!

No copy from the GRO can ever be a copy of the original. All registers, and I'm assuming it still happens in a similar manner, are copied by the Registrar each quarter and sent to the GRO for their uses. What you have is a copy from the GRO Register, the original being kept by the local office.

Thanks Mary. At least Irish Ancestors are letting up see the copy of the copy of the original certificates for free. I've found it really useful and it's saved me a fortune if they were chatging

[JohnnyO]

Sorry no image as the camera on my phone has died a death and the entry was in the original registers, not on microfilm.

16 November 1935 St Cuthbert, Everton
Thomas Stanley Wade, 30, Bachelor, Baker of 14 Bagnall Street
Father Thomas Wade (Deceased) Baker
Dora May Smith, 26, Spinster, 83 Wye Street
Father Clifford Smith, Undertakers Agent
Both signed their names
Witnesses Robert H? Smith and Esther F Wade

Hi Mary, many thanks for looking this up, I never did get a chance to get to the library with work commitments. The Wade side is correct, as Esther is Thomas Stanley Wade's sister, and the father Thomas Smith was a baker and died in 1929. My wife does not remember her grandfather being an undertaker's agent. Another blow is the witness Robert Smith, as there is no one in the family with that name

Thanks to Bert for reminding me about this thread. Mary, on reading this again, this is the family! All of my wife's family had previously looked at me blankly when I talked undertakers and probably why I discounted that, together with another year's worth of research. Maybe that as he was in the 1939 register as a coachman or groom, he was working with horses in the undertaker's?

Esther F Wade who was a witness is Thomas Stanley Wade's sister. Still not sure who Robert H Smith is. Mary, would I need an appointment to look at the register for this entry? I will now have to go and revisit the Electoral registers to see if i can find Clifford's address on the Wirral maybe as previously mentioned by others.

In the lat few minutes, Roger Hull has also come up with some very useful help from the admissions register at Westminster Homes.

Address from which admitted (1946): Belmont Road Hospital, streets 43 Shaw Street (wonder if Shaw Street is his address prior to that?)
Name of relatives, friends: son George 290 West Derby Road 13, daughter Mrs Wade 45 Wellbrow Road, 4. They are both correct.

Roger is also going to see if there are any admission records for Belmont hospital.

I'm slowly getting there . Thanks as ever to everybody in these wonderful forums who keep me sane!

[Blue70]

Kelly's Directory 1938,

41, 43 & 45 Shaw Street, Unique Hostel (The), Walt. Dunham Whate propr


Blue

[MaryA]

Esther F Wade who was a witness is Thomas Stanley Wade's sister. Still not sure who Robert H Smith is. Mary, would I need an appointment to look at the register for this entry?

So many points lost in all this, please can you tell me which Register you mean for this?

I get it now!! Yes you would need an appointment to arrange to see that Register of marriages.