My elusive grand-dad Frank Horton

[robjones]

Hi

Hoping for some clues as to my grandad, Frank Horton. He lived in Liverpool from around 1891-ish to 1930-ish

I can find no record of him until a war registration document in 1914, puts him at 23, Harbord St.

He married in 1915, but had moved to William St, Widnes by then.

He then had a catholic ceremony of the same marriage in 1919, which placed him back at 23, harbord st.

my aunties tell me stories of him chopping wood in their cellar and then going out with the girls sitting on his cart to sell the wood. Obviously very poor.

He also worked on the Mersey Tunnel.

I have various records (marriage certs, war records) of him naming his dad as George, or Walter or William. His DoB Changes many times too.

As he doesn't seem to know the simplest of details, I am thinking he was perhaps an orphan or adopted or placed in a workhouse?

I am also perplexed by 23, Harbord st, which doesn't appear in the 1911 census. it moves from 25 harbord street to 19, I think. Its as if the house disappears.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the houses at Harbord St? What became of them? When they were knocked down?

I am guessing he was illegitimate child, and was placed in an orphanage, but cannot see his name anywhere.

Or any other ideas where I may find further information?

[dickiesam]

Hello Robjones, and welcome.

Is this the 1915 marriage you referred to?
Marriages Jun 1915: Horton, Frank and McArdle, Elizabeth M - Prescot 8b 1411
If yes, what is Frank's age and occupation [and name and occupation of his father] on the marriage certificate?

I have been unable to find the second marriage in 1919 so I assume this was in fact a Catholic blessing and not a 'legal' marriage. This would fit if Frank and Elizabeth were married in a Registry Office or a C of E church in 1915.

Do you know when and where he died?

[Bertieone]

DS,

St Ambrose Church, Widnes, 1915


Frank Horton, 24, Bach, Labourer
Elizabeth Mary Mcardle, 22 spin.

Walter Horton, Labourer, Deceased,
Alfred Mcardle, Warehouseman.

[Bertieone]

Catholic,


Name:
Franciscum Horton

Marriage Date:
10 Aug 1919
Parish:
St Anne, Lancashire, England
Spouse's Name:
Elizabeth Mcardle
Father's Name:
Walteri Horton
Mother's name:
Anna Baker
Spouse Father's Name:
Alfredi Mcardle
Spouse Mother's Name:
Elizabeth William

[Bertieone]

[dickiesam]

Wondering if he was actually born Walter Horton who is listed as a pauper in the Cottage Homes for Children in Fazakerly in 1901.
RG13 Piece: 3450; Folio: 104; Page: 12
Walter Horton - Age: 9; Birth year: 1892
Born: St Helens, Lancashire

For location see RG13 Piece: 3450; Folio: 99; Page: 1

And...
Births Sep 1892: Horton, Walter - Prescot 8b 765

The above has links to Liverpool and the St Helens/Prescot/Widnes areas.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I think the line I would try if I were you is the birth certificate. If ordering through the GRO, state that the GRO Reference is NOT known, but give the year of birth and perhaps even the registration district but not the reference and state that the mother must be Ann Baker. If this is not correct they will refund your money. If it is correct it will be interesting.

[robjones]

Thanks DickieSam. I'll take a look at that. It could be very interesting. Frank has spoken of a brother, who he called Ike (isaac?) - so possibly they changed their names. I'll certainly look that up

And MaryA also thank you. I'll get on with GRO later this morning. I've tried to find Ann Baker before, I came across a Mary Ann Baker which had some promising links, but it was all around the Birmingham area and that threw me off the scent. The trouble I'm having is finding "proof".

[Blue70]

RootsChat thread link to avoid duplication of research:-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=679641.0


Blue

[robjones]

Thanks Blue. Is this forum linked to RootsWeb then?

[Blue70]

There's no connection between this forum and RootsChat but some of the members on here are also on RootsChat. I remembered these names. It helps to have as much information as possible on each enquiry including links to any research already done online so we don't spend time producing information you or other people have already found.


Blue

[dickiesam]

Do you know when and where he died?

Can you confirm this is the right death? If you have the death cert, what was his occupation when he died?
Deaths Mar 1949: Horton, Frank [51] - Windsor 6a 246

And if this is the right man [bn abt 1898], it would appear he lied about his age when he married and when he enlisted. Nothing unusual there, depends on circumstances at the time.

[robjones]

Yes, the death cert is certainly the least helpful of documents i have.

he was identified by his eldest son, who i think gave the age at death.

however we have the NHS cert which says 12/09/1892. The WW1 records say he was born in 1891 or 1892.

so i suspect eldest son didn't know how old he was. But its not something i can prove one way or the other.

[Blue70]

Wondering if he was actually born Walter Horton who is listed as a pauper in the Cottage Homes for Children in Fazakerly in 1901.
RG13 Piece: 3450; Folio: 104; Page: 12
Walter Horton - Age: 9; Birth year: 1892
Born: St Helens, Lancashire

For location see RG13 Piece: 3450; Folio: 99; Page: 1

And...
Births Sep 1892: Horton, Walter - Prescot 8b 765

The above has links to Liverpool and the St Helens/Prescot/Widnes areas.

This man was still being recorded as Walter Horton, born about 1893 in St Helens, on the 1911 Census. He was at this time Private Walter Horton, a musician in the band of the 7th Dragoon Guards in India.


Blue

[Blue70]

Different man:-

Name: Walter Horton
Birth Place: St. Helens, Lancs
Residence: Ashton-under-lyne
Death Date: 14 Jul 1916
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Liverpool
Rank: Trumpeter
Regiment: Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line
Battalion: 7th Dragoon Guards (Princess Royal)
Regimental Number: 2384
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casua ... ,%20WALTER


Blue

[robjones]

Thanks Blue. Not him then!