Thomas Green watchmaker

[tishco37]

I am trying to establish whether my ancestor Thomas Green, watchmaker, bc1816, was the son of Thomas Green, also watchmaker b 1780. Thomas jnr married Mary Adamson at St John's Old Haymarket on 11 April 1836. I have not been able to find his birth. Many thanks.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Can you please give details, including references of the earliest census you have him on so that we can establish where he was living.

We may be able to check some directories.

[Blue70]

Good resource here:-

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/wml/ ... index.aspx


Blue

[MaryA]

Perhaps you could confirm this is your family in the 1841 census

Court 68 Upper Milk Street, (Dale Street area) Liverpool
All born in County
Thomas Green 25 Watchmaker
Mary 20
Hugh 4
Mary 2
Class: HO107; Piece: 555; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 18; Page: 29

[MaryA]

The 1843 Gores Directory of Liverpool gives

Green Thomas, watch-case maker, Nelson court, 68, Up. Milk st.

Just checking for any other Greens with the same occupation, in case they might be linked.
Frederick, watch-case maker, Owens Place, 106 Leeds St.
William, watchmaker, Taylor Place, 19 Rose Hill
John, watch finisher, 32 Clare Street

[MaryA]

Just keep on file in case they help give a family unit.
Rose Hill, Islington area, Liverpool
All born in County
William Green 35 Watchmaker
Margt 40
William 14
John 11
George 9
HO107; Piece: 559; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 21; Folio: 9; Page: 11

Clare Street, Islington area, Liverpool
John Green 56 Watch Finisher Y
Patience 53 Ind Y
Martha Owens 67 No
HO107; Piece: 559; Book: 25; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 33; Folio: 15; Page: 23

Interesting address - 70 Upper Milk Street
Both born in County
Frederick Green 29 ???? Maker - sorry this word is very badly written, can't quite make it out, perhaps somebody else could have a check
Mary Ellen 23
with quite a number of other people living in the same place.
HO107; Piece: 555; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 19; Page: 31

I suspect this is this last couple
St George's Church, Liverpool
22 October 1838
Frederick Green Full Age Bachelor Watch Case Maker 70 Highfield Street
Father Richard Green, Mariner
Mary Ellen Payne 20 years Spinster 26 Highfield Street
Father Thomas Payne, Labourer
Both signed their names
Witnesses William Cottrell and Ann Owens

I'm thinking your Thomas and Frederick might be brothers - did Thomas sign his own name at his marriage?

Could just be coincidence, Ann Owens, witness and Martha Owens living with John and Patience Green.

[MaryA]

I have possible baptisms for the two

Baptism: 11 May 1815 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Green - [Child] of Richard Green & Mary
Abode: Thurlow St
Occupation: Mariner
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
Register: Baptisms 1814 - 1815, Page 213, Entry 1702
Source: LDS Film 1656378

Baptism: 2 May 1813 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Frederick Green - [Child] of Richard Green & Mary
Abode: Adlington St
Occupation: Mariner
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1814, Page 63, Entry 498
Source: LDS Film 1656378

also
Baptism: 24 Aug 1817 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Matthew Green - [Child] of Richard Green & Mary
Abode: Thurlow St
Occupation: Mariner
Baptised by: J. Pulford Curate
Register: Baptisms 1816 - 1818, Page 182, Entry 1351
Source: LDS film 1658119

[Karen]

Resurrecting this thread as I have found a possible connection to a Thomas Green, Watch Maker from Liverpool.

My 4x great grandparents, Edward Eyes and Mary Green, were married at St. Peter's, Liverpool, on 20th April 1811. Mary died in May 1818, and is buried at Holy Trinity, Wavertee. The burial register gives her age as 35, putting her birth at around 1783.

On the marriage register, one of the witnesses is a Thomas Green. He is also named on the marriage license - his occupation being 'Watch Maker'.

Thomas Green, Watch Maker from Liverpool, was married to Ann Hardy on 27th April 1778 at St. Anne's, Liverpool, and I wonder if this could be the father of my Mary Green. I have included four examples of signatures at https://www.dropbox.com/s/laqyd4lzdlyl5 ... 0Green.jpg

Thomas Green, watch maker, did have a daughter, Mary, born 10th June 1781 and baptised 12th June 1781 at St. Anne's, Liverpool. Although not the same year as the estimated birth of my Mary Green, it's not a million miles away. She is the sister of the Thomas Green mentioned in the first post in this thread. (born 28th January 1780, baptised 17th March 1780, St. Anne's, Liverpool).

Just wondering what other people's opinions are - could the two Thomas Greens be the same person?

Karen

[MaryA]

Very difficult to be 100% sure but it does seem quite likely, if pushed I might have said 1, 2 and 4 were the same.

What a pity the original poster never bothered to return.

[Karen]

Gut feeling tells me that they are the same person but I can't accept it until I find more proof! Think a look into the children of Thomas Green is in order to see if there are any more clues there!

[MaryA]

Have you checked for Wills? early ones listed here http://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm

[Karen]

I can't find any evidence of a will nor any sign of him mentioned in any of the online newspaper archives. I've found him in the 1796 Gore's Directory, so I think my best bet would be to trace him through more directories to try to determine a rough year of death.

Thanks for your interest.

Edit: I may have just found his death after a good old Google search! The Gentleman's magazine records an obituary in 1811: "At the Talbot Inn, Bristol, after three days' illness, Thomas Green, esq. of Wyke's Court, Liverpool; an honourable tradesmen and an accomplished gentleman."

[MaryA]

Wow, wonder what he was doing there!

[chiefsub68]

To keep on file. From Liverpool and Merseyside, Essays in the Economic and Social History of the Port and its Hinterland by JR Harris, Cass and Co, 1969:

Isaac Greene of Childwall Hall (1678-1749) is on e of the most outstanding examples of a successful lawyer in Lancashire. Descended from an old yeoman family, his father Edward Greene entered business as a mercer in Liverpool in the late 1600s and prospered sufficiently to apprentice his only son Isaac to Daniel Lawton, a Prescot attorney in whose practice he gained his early experience. isaac Greene;s association with Edward Blundell, a Prescot barrister was the first step towards personal success for it enabled him to take over the work of the Molyneux family's legal affairs from Blundell, around which he built up a substantial practice of his own.

The same book has the following on watchmakers (but doesn't mention any Greens) entitled: "The 17th Century Origins of Watchmaking in SW Lancashire" by FA BAILEY and TC BARKER. BAILEY was senior history master at Prescot Grammar School; he died in 1955. BARKER was the professor of economic and social history at the University of Kent, Canterbury.

-----

The development of portable spring-driven timekeepers — initially with only an hour hand — began in Europe from 1500 or soon afterwards, with the first said to have been made by Peter HENLEIN of Nuremburg. The craft spread from Germany to France and then to England by the 1590s, with one of the first English watchmakers being Bartholomew NEWSAM.

Watchmaking was vastly different to clockmaking. Clockmaking was mainly carried out by blacksmiths whereas watchmaking required precision. One blacksmith tended to design and build a clock whereas watchmaking relied on one watchmaker with a group of subcontractors; as such, watchmaking was clustered in groups in certain areas.

The essay says the first English watchmakers were almost certainly London men, but John CARTE, writing between 1680 and 1710, describes one Thomas ASPINWELL as "an ingenious workman". The writers say Aspinwell was almost certainly Thomas ASPINWALL of Toxteth Park, who died in 1624. Aspinwall's probate includes money owed to him for watches by a Mr HYDE and a Mr STANLEY.

Watchmaking developed in the former deer park at Toxteth which in 1591 had been divided by the fourth Earl of Derby into 20 small farms. It became a Puritan community. Aspinwall's eldest brother, Edward ASPINWALL, was living there in 1596. Edward was almost certainly the Edward ASPINWALL who had been to Brasenose College, Oxford, in 1585. Edward and Thomas were the sons of William ASPINWALL of Aspinwall in the township of SCARISBRICK. The Toxteth Park community educated Richard MATHER, who later went to America, and astronomer Jeremiah HORROCKS, the first person to predict the transit of Venus. Of the only other three watchmakers in the 1620s-1630s traced by the essay's authors, only one is not linked to the Aspinwalls. Samuel MIDGLEY was the son of Ellen Aspinwall and Isaac Midgley, while William Aspinall is probably Edward's son. The odd one out is James GREGSON of the Preston Guild.

The essay authors record surprisingly close links between London and Liverpool. They mention one Adam MARTINDALE who remarks upon the number of people who fled from London to friends in Lancashire to escape the 1625 plague. They also note that the Aspinwalls had a brother-in-law, James FLETCHER, who was a London haberdasher.

The essay says watchmaking developed in the area probably because of "the entrepreneurial ability of one well-connected man living in the area where there was already a tradition of metal-working skill". Also, the makers of watch parts depended upon metal-working specialists for the production of their tools. The essay authors appear to discount a theory by Matthew GREGSON that Lancashire watchmaking began because it made use of the unemployed armourers of Halton Castle.

Thomas Aspinwall's son, Samuel, greatly expanded the business in the mid 1600s. He left premises in London to one of his sons, Josiah.

By the late 17th century, 12 watchmakers are listed in the registers of St Nicholas Church, Liverpool: Joshua COBHAM, Thomas DARBYSHIRE, Henry HIGGINSON, John HOULT, John LITHERLAND, Joseph PRYOR, John STOREY, James and William WINSTANLEY, James, John and Robert WHITFIELD.

Wigan's earliest known watchmaker, in 1662, was Roger DARBYSHIRE of Pemberton. Five other craftsmen worked in the area from 1670 to 1700: Evan HILTON, John BILLINGE of Billinge, Oliver PLATT, John LOWE of Ashton-in-Makerfield, and Thomas MARTIN. At Preston in 1682 there are eight watchmakers: Richard BOLTON, John GREGSON, William HOUGHTON, Robert MAIRE, Henry MITTON, Job PEMBERTON, Richard HOUGHTON of Grimsargh, and Robert MOORE. At the same time there are other references to watchmakers [No names given] in Aigburth, Childwall Halewood, Huyton, Prescot and West Derby, showing how established the industry was in the area.

Carte notes that the English made "a peculiar improvement in the Engines and Tooles whereby their Works are performed with the more quickness and exactness". He records a Curious Engine for Cutting the Teeth of the Wheel, far more precise than by hand, an Engine for equalling the Ballance wheel and an Engine for cutting the turnes of the Fusie, and an Instrument for the drawing of the steel pinion wier "all of which ingenious inventions were conceived and made in Leverpool in Lancashire in England".

the drawing of pinion wire is accredited in the 1790s to William Houghton, who first carried on the process at Halebank, near Prescot.

The essay records that the Aspinwalls' business declined after 1672. It is likely that many of their Lancashire subcontractors were then used by Thomas TOMPION, a London watchmaker working for Robert HOOKE. Hooke and Christian HUYGENS had earlier both claimed to develop a watch with a minute hand.

The essay's authors record a line from Shadwell's play, The Lancashire Witches (1681), when a character asks: "Is yours ASPENWOLDS (Aspinwalls)?" when discussing the behaviour of his watch with a friend. "No" comes the reply, "TOMPIONS".

TOMPION was also associated with the Lancashire watchmaking genius, the priest Edward BARLOW (1639-1719), mentioned in the Dictionary of National Biography. Barlow was born Edward BOOTH, the son of Richard and Jane BOOTH, in Woolston, Warrington, and was baptised on 15 December 1639. He is said to have assumed the name Barlow in tribute to his godfather Ambrose BARLOW, a monk executed in Lancaster in 1641. Edward BARLOW, who was associated with the Houghtons of Park Hall, Charnock Richard, near Chorley, invented a clock that, on the pulling of a string, could strike the hour, quarter and minute at any time of day or night. Barlow didn't try to patent his invention until too late, and missed out because of it. He did, however, later patent an alternative to the verge escapement.

The essay authors go on to draw the difference between southeast and southwest Lancashire, with the outworkers in one concentrating on textiles, and the other on precision engineering and metal-working. They remark on how the latter helped the former to develop machinery and, thus, eventually, the county's and the nation's economy.

[Karen]

I've had my breakthrough!

I traced Thomas Green through trade directories and found that he was succeeded by an 'E Green.' This turned out to be his daughter Elizabeth, who died in 1824, a spinster, and, thankfully, left a will!

The copy of the will arrived yesterday and she named two of her siblings in it - Edward Green and Catherine Hughes, wife of Thomas Hughes. I found the marriage of Catherine Green to Thomas Hughes and one of the witnesses was my 4x great grandmother, Mary Eyes (nee Green).

[MaryA]

Well done Karen and thanks for bringing the post up to date.

A great example of how you really need to look all round a subject to come to an answer when many people go straight for bmd's and hit a brick wall.

[Karen]

For anyone interested in my search for the Green family, I've written about it on my blog:

https://unearthingtheskeletons.wordpres ... ar-search/