Help finding birth in 1909 Garston? please

[Felix+Co]

Hello,
I wonder if anyone could help me locate a birth from 1909. I have tried all kinds to locate this person but can't find them - plenty of similar/same names, but is not them.

Details are: Harold Collins, born 02 April 1909, Liverpool (taken from his death certificate).
He was illegitimate I believe, but he is listed on the 1911 census, under a different surname as being born in Garston. I have looked at church records for Garston (St Michael's) and Woolton (St Peter's), as his mother was from there with no luck. I don't live in Liverpool, so can't just go and check other records (wouldn't even know where to look!).
I have looked on Ancestry and Lancashire BMD without success.

It's probably really obvious and I have overlooked something, but I can't find him so any help or suggestions would be really appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Felix

[Hilary]

What name is he listed under in 1911 please?

[dickiesam]

Hi Felix,
It is probable that Harold's birth was registered in one of these three 'Liverpool' districts... Liverpool (1837-1934), Toxteth Park or West Derby.

Between Mar qtr 1908 and Dec qtr 1910 there is only one such named birth:
Births Mar 1910: COLLINS, Harold - W. Derby 8b 532

It is entirely possible, and not uncommon, that the informant of his death got his YoB wrong. If you know his mother's name you could specify that in an application to the GRO for a birth cert using the above references.

[Felix+Co]

Hi Felix,
It is probable that Harold's birth was registered in one of these three 'Liverpool' districts... Liverpool (1837-1934), Toxteth Park or West Derby.

Between Mar qtr 1908 and Dec qtr 1910 there is only one such named birth:
Births Mar 1910: COLLINS, Harold - W. Derby 8b 532

It is entirely possible, and not uncommon, that the informant of his death got his YoB wrong. If you know his mother's name you could specify that in an application to the GRO for a birth cert using the above references.

Thanks for this, I would think it is West Derby; I've had no problem with his siblings, but they are all under the name of Newby, which is what he is listed under in the 1911 Census. I don't think this could be him (but you never know) as he has a brother of 4 months listed as well. The informant was his son. I've also searched just his name and date of birth with no location on Ancestry, again with no luck.
Thanks to both of you.

[Felix+Co]

What name is he listed under in 1911 please?

Hi, see message above re his name - thank you.

[MaryA]

It wouldn't do any harm to apply for the birth certificate that Dickiesam has given you the reference for, stipulating mother's name only. If the record was wrong then they would refund your money, but at least you would be sure.

Of course assuming that the date of 2nd April has been given by a member of the family who may have known his birthday was celebrated on that day, then this is another criteria you could give for date of birth.

If you decline to give a reference at all, they will do a three year search around the details you provide.

[Hilary]

Harold's death appears to be registered as Harold Collins Newby.

The 1911 census shows that Edwin James Miles Newby and his wife Saeah Ellen nee Collins had been married 1 year and that Sarah had had 2 children both living. The boys are listed as Newby and Edwin is calling them his sons. The boys must have been born before the marriage but Edwin may well have been the father. Indeed it seems very likely given the use of both surnames.

Harold's place of birth is given as Woolton and his brother's as Garston. Maybe Sarah was living in Woolton at the time.

Edwin and Sarah's marriage was in the Prescott Registration district. Where did the marriage take place?

I would go with the birth DS has found and state mother's name. I wouldn't be hung up about the year of birth being a year out maybe whoever registered his death didn't know.

[Hilary]

Woolton was in the Prescot Registration district.

[dickiesam]

With the additional info as to where Harold's mother may have been living, Much Woolton, a further search produced no results for the same period of Mar qtr 1908 to Dec qtr 1910 in the Prescot district. It is quite possible that his birth was registered late, even a year late, hence the 1910 West Derby registration. The Index only reflects the year and quarter of the registration not the actual date of birth. That will be on the birth cert itself.

That said, it is worth noting that his brother was registered in West Derby...
Birth: EDWIN J NEWBY
Birth year 1911 - Mar qtr.
District: WEST DERBY; Volume 8B; Page 649

And the parents' marriage....
Marriage: EDWIN JAMES NEWBY and SARAH ELLEN COLLINS
Marriage year: 1910 - Mar qtr
District: PRESCOT; Volume 8B; Page 916

[Hilary]

The couple were married at St Peter Woolton in 1910 according to www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

I would look at that church for baptisms but both before the marriage and after the marriage. I don't know whether they are online.

[Alison C]

Hello,

Here's something interesting which may or may not be connected....

FreeBMD has the following birth registration:
Births June 1909
RIMMER, Harold Collins
District: Prescot
Vol: 8b
Page: 718

LancashireBMD shows the birth as being in Much Woolton.

FreeBMD have a marriage for him:
Marriages March 1936
Groom: RIMMER, Harold C
Bride: WEBSTER, Annie M
District: Liverpool S
Vol: 8b
Page: 20

I cannot find a death registration for Harold Collins Rimmer but there is one for Harold Collins Newby.

So, were Harold's birth and marriage registered as RIMMER but he used the name NEWBY as it was Edwin Newby who raised him?

There are several possible birth registrations for children of Harold and Annie in Liverpool South district (including an Edwin) - all have a middle initial of "N". Did he put Newby as their middle name?

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue where the Rimmer name would come from! I did wonder if Sarah Ellen Collins could have been married before, but there no sign of a marriage for her to a Mr Rimmer. Also, I can find anything to say that Harold Collins Rimmer officially changed his name to Harold Collins Newby.

So, a bit of a long shot but maybe worth considering.

Alison

[dickiesam]

Hi Alison,
I had seen that Prescot 'Collins Rimmer' birth but had discounted it because I thought this was probably the child in 1910+1 and he was the only 'local' birth in the census.

DAVID RIMMER HEAD 31 1880 Sheet glass maker - LANE ENDS, EARLESTON, LANCS
ELIZABETH RIMMER WIFE 27 1884 - ST HELENS, PRESCOT
LILLY RIMMER DTR 4 1907 - ST HELENS
HAROLD RIMMER SON 2 1909 - ST HELENS
ARTHUR RIMMER SON 0 1911 - ST HELENS

[Felix+Co]

Thanks for all this info,
I have not come across the name Rimmer when searching her family, and I was told a long time ago (just in passing during a conversation about his birth) that his wife was called Nancy.

When in Liverpool a few years ago I did manage to get a lot of information about her family, parents, siblings etc as all were in St Peter's Woolton parish records. However, and rather unfortunately many of the records were not available as the Record Office was undergoing restoration (completed now and looking great I must say from what I've seen on line) her marriage details were in this lot so I could not see them; maybe Harold's baptism would have been there too.

Due to on going ill health I am not able to travel too much so will not be able to get back to Liverpool for a while to check - I live at the other end of the country now - and don't know if they are available on line, but will look this week. Will also order a certificate with information given and suggestions posted. I'll let you know when and if I find him.

Thanks again everyone

[Felix+Co]

Hello to all those who offered help concerning birth of Harold Newby 1910.
I received my certificate this morning and unfortunately it is not him
His mum is Alice Collins, formerly Lacely and his dad is Charles.
When I spoke to the GRO they said they only did a search on the reference you gave them and not other info as well, so I'll to get them to do a search on his name and his mother's and his assumed date of birth.
Bye for now and thanks again. Will let you know when I find him

[MaryA]

When I spoke to the GRO they said they only did a search on the reference you gave them and not other info as well, so I'll to get them to do a search on his name and his mother's and his assumed date of birth.

Sorry they have made a mess of that order, but I would take issue with them as they shouldn't have sent and charged you for that certificate.

Just give them the year and they should do a three year search with the details you give.

[dickiesam]

When I spoke to the GRO they said they only did a search on the reference you gave them and not other info as well, so I'll to get them to do a search on his name and his mother's and his assumed date of birth.

Don't specify a date or quarter of birth, likewise no District or any other GRO Birth Index reference, just the year. As MaryA says the GRO will search one year either side of the year you specify. And I would also take issue with the GRO over the incorrect cert. If it doesn't match the information you actually provided, they should not have sent you the cert. Ask for your money back.

[Felix+Co]

Hello Dickiesam and MaryA,
They did not mess up,they just sent the certificate for the index reference I gave them, but unfortunately it was not the person who I thought it was going to be. I used the reference Dickiesam suggested as it seemed most likely. It can go with the other one I have that also seemed 'most likely' in the past
Not to worry, I'll ask for a search soon as I will have other certificates to buy, but I know they are the ones I need. Have to save up some more, what with all this spending on family I never knew or met - bad enough with the living relatives

Thanks everyone
Felix

[MaryA]

It is entirely possible, and not uncommon, that the informant of his death got his YoB wrong. If you know his mother's name you could specify that in an application to the GRO for a birth cert using the above references.

Sorry you were disappointed with your certificate, if you have additional information it's always good to provide it then if it doesn't match they will refund your money. The main problem with a mother's name is in case she was a second wife perhaps and the child was born to a previous wife.