Tracking down Liverpudlians

[perrycornish]

Hi I'm trying to find details of family members-all Uncles of my mother here in NZ.
My understanding is that all or most lived in/near Liverpool.

Parents Thomas Ryan b.abt 1880 Charlefort Ir. Mary Ellen Damer b. feb 1875 Heyward, Lancs
Surname:RYAN

John Leo 1902 Paisley, Renfrewshire
Patrick Francis 1904 Glasgow
Mary (May) 1904 Manchester
Norah 1907 Dublin
Percy born 1907 Grennock, Renfrewshire
Thomas J 1911 Manchester
Frank 1915 Leeds?
Have picked up the all in the 1911 census living in Deansgate Manchester.
I have good detail on Mary(May) and Norah but am struggling with all the boys….My question is how do I track them down with such common names? Any clues….Thomas or Frank may have been in the Airforce?
Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.

#8636

[Tina]

Hi from across the Tasman.
The ones with a middle initial will be easier to find, they may have married, have a look in Lancs BMD.
Was your Mum Christina bn Lpool 1914?
I noticed John L died in 1949 in Lpool, sorry too many to pick him in 1938 Directory.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. We have put together a few suggestions for tracing a living relative here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=8154 however you would need to begin with the marriage certificates of any of the children so that you can confirm they are the correct ones, with the right fathers.

Although it is a transcription site you may find some of them listed on http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ which would possibly tell you which church the ceremony may have taken place in. If the religion was RC you may find that entries state "Register Office or Registrar Attended", this doesn't necessarily mean it was a Register Office marriage.

Do you have any ideas as to which of the family moved to Liverpool rather than remaining in Manchester? Sometimes it might be worthwhile to post on a specific board for Manchester as the posters there might have more specific help to offer, such as which newspapers should be checked for the dates in question, perhaps this one might be useful http://manchesterfamilyhist.proboards.com/

[dickiesam]

Hi and welcome,
It would be worthwhile confirming the birth years of the children you have extracted from the 1911 census should you target them in a trace exercise. It is quite common for a YoB to be out by a couple of years. The census form asks for age only and the YoB is calculated from that when the data is transcribed. The year of birth registration would normally suffice so you would not need to buy a birth cert in most instances.

The Scots births can be found here.... http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

It would also be worth confirming the DoBs of the parents which would help identify them in the Death Index. The death cert would tell you where they were living at the time of death and who the informant was.

Do you have their marriage cert?
Marriages Mar 1899: Ryan, Thomas and Damer, Mary Ellen - Liverpool 8b 198

[Tina]

Hi D.S the marr cert is posted in Anc by a member. Very small, both were living in Peach St, Thos father was also Thos desceased labr, her father was John a shoemaker. Looks like Margt A Damer was a witness with Daniel J Crowley??
Our poster appears to have a link to this some time ago.

[MaryA]

Good checking DS, didn't realise the marriage would have been Liverpool. It is noted on LancsBMD as being Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended but I've checked the RC marriages on Ancestry with out success.

[MaryA]

There are a number of public trees on Ancestry giving details of this family, the marriage took place at St Philip Neri on 14 February 1899, Thomas Ryan was 23, Bachelor, Shoemaker, of 24 Peach Street, father Thomas Ryan deceased, occupation labourer. Mary Ellen Damer was 21, spinster of same address, father John Damer, shoemaker. Witnesses Daniel Crowley and Mary A Damer.

Mary Ellen was born in 1875 in Rochdale.

Thomas Ryan born 1880 Charleford, Co Cork. Died Jul-Aug-Sep 1935 Liverpool, as only the index is given perhaps the death certificate hasn't been obtained.

Mary Ellen's burial is given as 13 Dec 1908 Ford Cemetery, age 29, address is 14 Galton Street.

I'm posting this information for the crew as our original poster has submitted some of the photographs/certificates to the tree I was checking.

[MaryA]

Sorry Tina our posts crossed there. Not sure if the witness is Marg. A or Mary A.

[Bertieone]

There are a number of public trees on Ancestry giving details of this family, the marriage took place at St Philip Neri on 14 February 1899, Thomas Ryan was 23, Bachelor, Shoemaker, of 24 Peach Street, father Thomas Ryan deceased, occupation labourer. Mary Ellen Damer was 21, spinster of same address, father John Damer, shoemaker. Witnesses Daniel Crowley and Mary A Damer.

Mary Ellen was born in 1875 in Rochdale.

Thomas Ryan born 1880 Charleford, Co Cork. Died Jul-Aug-Sep 1935 Liverpool, as only the index is given perhaps the death certificate hasn't been obtained.

Mary Ellen's burial is given as 13 Dec 1908 Ford Cemetery, age 29, address is 14 Galton Street.

I'm posting this information for the crew as our original poster has submitted some of the photographs/certificates to the tree I was checking.

Our posters Mary Ellen was alive and well in 1911 hopefully.

[dickiesam]

Hi D.S the marr cert is posted in Anc by a member. Very small, both were living in Peach St, Thos father was also Thos desceased labr, her father was John a shoemaker. Looks like Margt A Damer was a witness with Daniel J Crowley??
Our poster appears to have a link to this some time ago.

Hi Tina,
An odd thing! When I looked up the Ryan family in 1911 in Deansgate, Manchester, because there was a 'marker' against the entry I knew I had been to look at that family before..... but when? There must be someone else tracking the family who put me onto it? The old grey matter is a trifle slow this morning!

[dickiesam]

Mary Ellen's burial is given as 13 Dec 1908 Ford Cemetery, age 29, address is 14 Galton Street.

I'm posting this information for the crew as our original poster has submitted some of the photographs/certificates to the tree I was checking.

Our posters Mary Ellen was alive and well in 1911 hopefully.

I agree with Bert, Mary Ellen was definitely alive in 1911.....

THOMAS RYAN HEAD 31 1880 Shoemaker - Charleford, Co Cork
MARY ELLEN RYAN WIFE 29 1882 - Heywood, Lancs
MARY RYAN Dtr 7 1904 - Manchester, Lancs
JOHN L RYAN SON 6 1905 - Paisley, Scotland
PAT F RYAN SON 5 1906 - Glasgow, Scotland
PERCY RYAN SON 4 1907 - Greenock, Scotland
NORAH RYAN Dtr 2 1909 - Co Wicklow, Ireland

NOTE: In some 50 years I have never come across a Charleford in County Cork or in Cork City. There is however a Charleville, a busy town and a Charles Fort, near Kinsale. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fort_%28Ireland%29

[Bertieone]

Hi D.S the marr cert is posted in Anc by a member. Very small, both were living in Peach St, Thos father was also Thos desceased labr, her father was John a shoemaker. Looks like Margt A Damer was a witness with Daniel J Crowley??
Our poster appears to have a link to this some time ago.

Hi Tina,
An odd thing! When I looked up the Ryan family in 1911 in Deansgate, Manchester, because there was a 'marker' against the entry I knew I had been to look at that family before..... but when? There must be someone else tracking the family who put me onto it? The old grey matter is a trifle slow this morning!

DS, searching for Private Ryan perhaps, grave subsidence.

[dickiesam]

DS, searching for Private Ryan perhaps, grave subsidence.

That's a possibility Bert. To add to my puzzle, when curiosity took me to Scotland's People to have a browse on those Ryan Scots births, I found I had previously paid for and downloaded this birth registration..... Why? And who for?

[dickiesam]

DS, searching for Private Ryan perhaps, grave subsidence.

Bert, your Private Ryan suggestion appears to be the right one. Just found another child..
1902 - RYAN, JOHN LEO - PAISLEY/RENFREW - Scots GRO ref 573/01 2191.
And I hadn't seen it before. So I'll sleep tonight without the tablets!

Edit to add: The birth year differs from that on the 1911. There John Leo was 6 giving 1905.

And... Percy was registered as Pierce....
1905 - RYAN, PIERCE - GREENOCK WEST/RENFREW - Scots GRO ref 564/02 0760
This birth year is also different from that on the 1911. The forename may be significant in later life. I couldn't resist using a couple of spare credits to get this...

[dickiesam]

A possible marriage for Pierce?
Marriages Jun 1933: Ryan, Pierce and Harper, Annie - Liverpool 8b 316

There could be 2 daughters born to this couple, 1939 and 1946.

[dickiesam]

Using the Scots birth reg info, in particular the DoB of 4th October 1905, there is this death...
Death: PIERCE THOMAS RYAN
Date of Birth: 4 / 10 / 1905
Death year: 1969; June Qtr
District: HAWARDEN, Flintshire, Wales
Volume: 8A
Page: 2425

There isn't an England/Wales birth that fits.

[dickiesam]

This death fits the Scots birth info, including DoB...

Death: PATRICK FRANCIS RYAN
Birth date: 9 / 01 / 1904
Death year: 1973; Mar qtr
District: BRADFORD, Yorkshire
Volume: 2B; Page: 430

Two possible marriages...
Marriages Mar 1932: Ryan, Patrick F and Francis, Ethel - Liverpool 8b 272
Marriages Jun 1932: Ryan, Patrick F and Ellwood, Mary W - Fylde 8e 1327

[MaryA]

Our Perry appears to have posted on here before
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... trick+ryan

[dickiesam]

Our Perry appears to have posted on here before
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... trick+ryan

Hmmm! So that's why the 1911 Ryan census rang bells. We are re-ploughing old ground.....

[dickiesam]

Perry,
Norah Ryan's short-form birth cert.....

The full version will contain the names of the parents, the parents' home address and the place of birth. The latter conflicts with the 1911 census info in that Dublin City is not in County Wicklow.