Harold Sidney Smith... A mystery man ??

[erika]

Hi Steve
Had a look for the other witness William Eden.
If it's the same one there is a service record for a William Eden in the 16th Battalion, Liverpool Regiment Service no 242799, Rifleman. There is also a Medal Card.
His address was Trevelyan St.

War buddies it looks like Harold's witnesses were

[dickiesam]

Hi Bert,
Great find! I slept in today so missed the fun. With the absence of a hit for Harold with a father Albert in 1891 and 1901 I was about to explore the theory that he could have lied about his age when he married.....

If he was the father of that Gerring nee Gerring child born/died in 1917 he may well have felt something for the mother, despite her being a fair bit older than him. Most of us have examples of ages being upped or downed to suit the circumstances. And the father stated to be a vetinary surgeon could be an impressive fiction. And he may have switched Seafus for Sydney in the early days..... maybe when he enlisted.

[SMITH923]

Hi All.
Thank you to everyone that has taken an interest in my story and contributed with their suggestions and info.

Bertieone,
the census record for Harold Seafus Smith is compelling, and I will definitely delve into this further. Yes, the age is wrong, but as you say , 10 years out is not unheard of, and as has been suggested he may have lied about his age as he was marrying a widow much older than himself. It is possible that he was the father of the child in 1917, but if the census record is right and he came from Norfolk, how did he come to be in Liverpool in 1917 and then to marry in 1919 ? I have scanned all the relevant certs. intending to attach them but can't see a way of doing it on this.

I have uploaded the my dad's birth cert. and his sister's birth cert. to ancestry .
On my aunt Tessie's birth cert. 1920, the father is Harold Sydney Smith and the informant is Harold himself.
On my dad's birth cert. the father is Harold Sefus Smith, and the informant is Rebecca J Smith, mother.

[SMITH923]

dickisam,
I like your theory that Harold switched between Seafus and Sidney and it seems increasingly clear that the age is wrong. The localities are very puzzeling to me. Norfolk is quite a way from Liverpool and finding a connection will probably be impossible, but that is not to say that it didn't happen for some reason or other.

[SMITH923]

Hi Erika,
Thanks for the info re William Eden. This seems to infer that they were indeed war buddies. I will try to follow this through.

[SMITH923]

MaryA
I agree, an amazing coincidence with the names uncovered by bertieone.
This is the first time that I have seen the Seafus recorded anywhere. I did research the name previously and it would appear that the correct spelling of this name is Cephus (a biblical name ). It was probably written down by the registrars just how it sounded, hence the variations.

[Blue70]

how did he come to be in Liverpool in 1917

Liverpool once drew people in from all over the place it's no surprise really for anyone from anywhere to be found in Liverpool. It was a very successful, thriving port city. The main reasons for coming to Liverpool were to work or to emigrate by ship.


Blue

[dickiesam]

How did he come to be in Liverpool in 1917 and then to marry in 1919

Harold was in the Army at the time. He could have been posted anywhere in the UK and was in Liverpool when he met the widow Rebecca. Theorising now, but he may have met her in 1915/16.... she had a child while Harold had gone back to the war. He comes back to find a child, possibly his, had been born but had died. He, like so many other soldiers, is not discharged until 1919 when he marries Rebecca using his possibly-assumed second forename of Sidney. Perhaps Seafus, even if it had been spelled correctly as Cephus, could take some explaining to his Army mates.

Stranger things have happened...

And re:

On my aunt Tessie's birth cert. 1920, the father is Harold Sydney Smith. On my dad's birth cert the father is Harold Sefus Smith

Perhaps in the years between the two births Rebecca had been told, or discovered, Harold Sidney was really Harold Sefus.

[Bertieone]

It seems the only time Sefus/Seafus was recorded was when it was outside of Harold's control, his birth registration, a census which his father likely filled in and his son's registration that his wife took care of. Obviously he preferred Sid or Sidney, a name he used when he was in control of form filling, Wedding and daughters registration, which he messed up, giving his wife's maiden name as Gerring.

Recorded as Gearing,

Teresa A Smith, 1920, West Derby,8b 1199.

[Hilary]

Harold Seafus Smith and his parents are living in West Ham in 1911 and 1901

[MaryA]

Harold Seafus Smith and his parents are living in West Ham in 1911 and 1901

Even more likely, he may have met Rebecca whilst they were both in London.

This is the first time that I have seen the Seafus recorded anywhere.

Plenty of "Sefus" if you check Ancestry, just not yours.

If you need to upload copies of the certificates, please ensure you crop them to just the part you want to show to ask opinions about and then use the instructions here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =16&t=9817

[Liverbird]

Hi Steve, I have had a look for where I saw photos ages back of Dorothy street, sadly can't find them now but if you look at http://www.yoliverpool.com and flicker site , put in a search for Dorothy street, there are some of the street before the walls came tumbling down, all boarded up and some with the brickwork painted brightly not quite as I remember them as a child. Now it would appear there is a whole new area of modern houses.

I have been looking through your posts again and realise that you thought your grandfather had been at sea after leaving the army, have you considered checking out merchant seaman's records in his name, he would have had to name someone for his pay book and being in Liverpool it would have been his home port. showing as a hotel cook on your aunts marriage cert he may have been a ships cook as well. I don't think death certs for him would give a lot of info. None of these ideas may be relevant to your search but every little idea could help, cheers l.b

[dickiesam]

Hi Steve,
Re:

All of the family have been interested to learn more about our family history especially the mystery surrounding our grandfather. He appears to have been a military man, firstly being in the Army in the 1st world war, then being a Merchant Seaman, and is deceased by 1942, possibly perishing at sea in the 2nd world war. Just a thought. It may explain why my dad never mentioned his dad. Maybe he was away a lot and the relationship strained. I can only guess.

It is relatively unusual for a son never talking about his father. I think you have to consider that Harold may well have had second thoughts about his marriage to Rebecca. After all there could have been a big difference in their ages and he may have not wanted to continue the relationship and 'deserted' the family. One of the ways a deserted spouse might explain the absence of a husband is to tell everyone he is in the Merchant Navy. I have an instance of that in my lot.

It will be quite difficult to find out when he died. If he had left the family home he could be alive but dead in Rebecca's mind when his daughter married. There isn't an MN record that 'leaps out' of the page and likewise a death. Unfortunately from the September qtr of 1910 to 1969, the GRO Indexes do not show the actual second forename, only the initial. And there are lots of Harold S Smiths.

Am I correct in assuming that Rebecca died in 1965?
Death: SMITH, Rebecca J
Registration district: Liverpool North
Year of registration: 1965; Dec Qtr;
Age at death: 84
Volume no: 10D; Page no: 250

The above age at death matches her birth exactly...
Births Jun 1881: EDGAR, Rebecca Jane - Pancras 1b 48

[SMITH923]

Hi Dickiesam,
I completely understand your thinking and that is a very possible scenario that I had considered. It's going to be difficult to prove this one way or another.

Yes, the death record that you have for Rebecca is correct. She died a painful death in 1965 after suffering from gangrene and having both legs amputated. I remember visiting her in hospital when I was a child.
Steve.