Convent of Notre Dame, Mt Pleasant, Liverpool

[Hilary]

The Toxteth Park jessie dies later the same year.

[Jaychris]

Thanks, Hilary, my cousin will search for the West Derby Jessie and not the Toxteth Pk one. She is also going to check the Jesse Thomas b 1889 at Toxteth Park. We'll leave no avenue unturned because our Gran always wanted to have a birth certificate and my cousin who then lived near her could never find a birth registration anywhere at that time.

It was the Liverpool Record Office which was being refurbished or, as you said, temporarily closed and the records transferred somewhere else in the meantime. My cousin was told they were at Crosby temporarily.

Thank you, too, Dickie Sam. Elizabeth Guest (nee Jeffrey) died in 1867, 4Q, and it looks as though she died in childbirth as a son was born the same quarter (William Robert Guest).

She had married William Guest in Glasgow and he is the William neither you nor I could find in the 1871 census.

[dickiesam]

Hi Jaychris,
You mentioned finding Jessie as Cooke-Thomas in 1891. I couldn't find that entry but did find this. This transcription is an accurate copy of the census summary page. I believe Tina found the same page earlier. Where did you find the Cooke-Thomas entry?

1891:
THOMAS, Joseph Henry - Head - Married - 26 - Baker - Liverpool.
THOMAS, Mary W - Wife - 26 - Liverpool.
THOMAS, Jessie - Dtr - 2 - Liverpool.
THOMAS, William - Son - 0 (8M) - Liverpool.
Address: 25 Severn Street, Everton, Liverpool
RG12 / Piece:2954 / Folio:131 / Page:34

Since William married in Scotland where he was in employment, I would suggest that William may be in Scotland in 1871. Have you searched the Scotland census for that year?

DS

[Jaychris]

Hi Dickie Sam,

I found the surname Cooke-Thomas on Jessie's marriage certificate where she also gives her father as Joseph Henry Thomas so maybe Hilary is right and although Jessie was born before her mother's marriage to Joseph H T he may be her father - although my cousin and I were led to believe not.

I believe the William Thomas (8 mths) listed on the 1891 Census with J H T's family must have died because there is another son William b c1898 on the 1901 Census. I did find that and nobody in the family knew anything about a brother of Gran dying young as all she ever spoke about was her brother whom we believe was called William Archibald Thomas.

Thank you for your help.

[dickiesam]

Hi Jaychris,
RE:

Thanks, Hilary, my cousin will search for the West Derby Jessie and not the Toxteth Pk one. She is also going to check the Jesse Thomas b 1889 at Toxteth Park. We'll leave no avenue unturned because our Gran always wanted to have a birth certificate and my cousin who then lived near her could never find a birth registration anywhere at that time.

Your cousin may have a fruitless journey if she is trying to check the births of Jessie Cook. Normally, the only way you can see those births details is by buying the actual copy certificate from the GRO in Southport. There is, however, a possibility you can access the birth via a baptism in the parish register collection on Ancestry.

DS

[Jaychris]

Thanks Dickie Sam.

Not being sure whether which Jessie is ours I'm reluctant to buy birth certs as I've done that before for another branch of the family only to discover the person is not whom we expected and is no relation! We pensioners watch our pennies!

I'll give the Ancestry site you suggest a try. Thank you.

[dickiesam]

Thanks Dickie Sam.

Not being sure whether which Jessie is ours I'm reluctant to buy birth certs as I've done that before for another branch of the family only to discover the person is not whom we expected and is no relation! We pensioners watch our pennies!

I'll give the Ancestry site you suggest a try. Thank you.

As a fellow pensioner I completely concur, but sometimes there is no alternative but to bite the bullet and contribute £9.25 to the GRO. Hopefully you will find the baptism in the parish register collection and while it will not have all the information that the GRO birth registration has, it may help your quest.

DS

[Hilary]

I appreciate I'm probably sounding repetive but the entry on the birth certificate is not the the same as the entry in a baptism register.
If the child is a Catholic there is usually more on the baptism than oin a C of E entry BUT it is not the same as that on a birth certifcate.

Whover told your cousin that Liverpool Record Office records where at Crosby was wrong. All the church registers they had are there ojn film at the temporary record office floor 2 of the World Museum. It will take hours to go through them even if just every church in Everton is checked.

Many people doing family history are also pensioners, I am but sometimes you have to spend money to proof or disprove something. The alternative is hours spent on a possible fruitless search.

Also it was a suggestion I made about Jessie's parentage not a fact. Just as Mary A also made a suggestion but these are not facts just possibilities.

[MaryA]

We have often found that a stepfather has been named on a marriage certificate because he is the only father they have ever known, it's not to say that he is the biological father, whose identity may well have died with the mother.

There appears to be some confusion here about what can and can't be looked up at a Record Office and a while ago I posted some information that you will find useful http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6937

A Record Office's holdings are totally different from a Register Office, where if you make an approach to them they might be kind enough to do a look up for you, however this is not guaranteed. Both the local Register Office and the GRO will probably do a look up for you, based on the information that you have. Offer your money up front and say that yes you want the certificate if it can be found, state the years you believe the birth to have taken place and offer the name - say Jessie Cook - with the mother's name being Mary Guest - mother's name is the only fact that you have and if a baptism can't be found then this is your recourse. If an entry cannot be found it is very probable that they will not charge you, but again this is not guaranteed.

[Hilary]

The trouble is neither the father nor the mother's name is known as fact!!

[MaryA]

The trouble is neither the father nor the mother's name is known as fact!!

Of course this is true, however it would seem to be the best guess at present and perhaps the first line of enquiry that could be ruled out before trying along other avenues. It should also alleviate money being spent on incorrect certificates.

[Jaychris]

Thank you all.

One of us will try the Liverpool Register Office. I have had a great deal of help with my paternal side from the Auckland Registrar. Although she could not give me information from the certificate she would answer yes or no to questions which helped me greatly.

[Jaychris]

Sent for the birth certificate of Jessie Cook born 1888 at West Derby in Walton Workhouse. Her date of birth (21 July 1888) and the fact that her mother told her she'd been born in Walton Workhouse makes me sure that I've got the right birth certificate - Jessie is my grandmother! No father named on her birth certificate yet her mother (listed as a domestic servant) whom I don't think ever married, has given her name as Mary Cook (not Guest) so either the surname was invented or Jessie's father did have the surname Cook. I guess we'll never know who Jessie's father was but suddenly my 97-year-old uncle (the only one of Jessie's children still alive) has piped up that he was a Russian Orthodox Jew! I'll have to take that with a pinch of salt unless he connects with some other piece of information suddenly.

[MaryA]

he was a Russian Orthodox Jew!

Bet that was a bit of a surprise!

[Jaychris]

I'll say it was a surprise; it knocked our socks off!

One of my cousins is going to try to quiz her 97-yr-old father this weekend when she takes him out to celebrate his 98th birthday! I don't know how much luck she'll have but we're all curious to know where he got the information from or whether it was a figment of the imagination.

[johnhoul]

Hi ,first this is not of any help,but a story of confusion,i followed a family line and could not work out where the name Fletcher came from being used as a second name, William Houlgrave married Margaret Whitehead in 1836,still together for 1841 and 1851 census then Margaret died 1852,William remarried Elizabeth,just by chance i came across the death in 1838 of a Margaret Houlgreave,William had changed the spelling of his name to Houlgreave in 1839 a William Houlgreave had married a Margaret Fletcher, so that answered the question ,shame it wasn't one of my family just a line that had intrigued me.
John